“There’s no quicker way to burn out and really lose the joy and the passion for writing than undercharging for what you do. I speak from experience, I could weep when I look at some of the first jobs I ever quoted on.”
Nicole Sergi
“In terms of diversity, considering people of colour and LGBTQIA+ community is just remembering that people are different, people have diverse things about them you have to remember that, you know, disabled people exist. It’s okay if you do the wrong thing, you just have to try and be willing to listen.”
Zoe Simmons
Okay we have a new podcast theme (well not that new, we’ve done a few episodes), it’s called AWARD WINNERS, and in these episodes, I’m talking to winners from the Clever Copywriting School Awards of 2022.
I’ll be asking:
What do they think made them stand out?
What advice and tips can they offer you?
What are the challenges they’ve faced?
And common mistakes they see their peers making.
Today we’re chatting with our diversity winner and our new business winner.
These are useful, practical and hopefully inspiring episodes from glorious yet humble writers.
I hope you enjoy them.
Tune in to learn:
- Why Nicole won Best New Business of the Year 2022
- Why Zoe Simmons won Diversity Champion of the Year 2022
- The best way to build trust with your clients
- Why accessibility and inclusivity is so important
- Nicole’s number one tip to anyone starting a new business
- Zoe’s number one tip for anyone looking to being more inclusive if your copywriting
- Challenges Zoe and Nicole have faced in their careers
- How Nicole and Zoe view the rise of AI and tools
Listen to the podcast
Share the love
If you like what you’re hearing on Clever Copy Chats, support the show by taking a few seconds to leave a rating and/or comment on iTunes or Spotify. Thanks.
And big thanks to Chimsey from Australia for their lovely review:
“The podcast I didn’t know I had been waiting for
As always Kate Toon has delivered the good with this podcast. Delivering super usable nuggets of copywriting genius to assist the copywriting pro or the novice to up their copywriting skills and copy decks.
Thank you so much Kate for this gem of a podcast that I never knew I needed, but am not unashamedly addicted to.”
Share the meme
About Nicole Sergi
Nicole Sergi is an award-winning copywriter and the founder of Copy with Nicole. As an ex-marketer turned copywriter, she works with agencies and small businesses to craft marketing communications that customers will actually read. With a bit of ghost writing thrown in for good measure (spooky!)
Nicole is who to contact when you want a kind and collaborative pair of hands to guide you through the copywriting process. She’s a dream to work with and will take most of your feedback on board; unless you want to incorporate the term pocket-rocket into the copy. That’s where she’ll draw the line.
Connect with Nicole Sergi
About Zoe Simmons
As an award-winning copywriter, speaker, author, disability advocate and journalist who’s been published hundreds of times around the globe, Zoe uses the raw power of storytelling to capture hearts and minds.
A fierce advocate for disability, mental illness and chronic illness, Zoe candidly speaks and writes about her experiences with fibromyalgia, undiagnosed adenomyosis, bipolar, anxiety and autism to smash stigma, create change, and help others know they aren’t alone. Recently she has been working on her first book about her experiences as a disabled journalist, and her hometown’s survival in the Black Summer Bushfires.
Connect with Zoe Simmons
Useful Resources
Transcript
Kate Toon
Okay, we have a new podcast theme. While it’s not that new now we’ve done a few episodes. It’s called award winners. And in these episodes, I’m talking to winners from the clever copywriting school awards of 2022. I’ll be asking them, what do they think made them stand out? What advice and tips can they offer, what challenges they faced and some common mistakes they see their peers making? Today we’re chatting with our diversity winner and our new business winner. These are useful, practical and hopefully inspiring episodes from glorious yet humble copywriters. I hope you enjoy them. Hello, my name is Kate toon. And I’m the head copy beast of the clever copywriting School, an online community and teaching hub for all things related to copywriting. And today I’m talking to Nicole Sergi, who won the Best New Business of the Year, and Zoe Simmons who want a diversity champion of the year. Hello.
Zoe Simmons
Hi
Nicole Sergi
Hello
Kate Toon
It’s a three way podcast which is always a touch awkward. So do bear with us as we all try and get our share of the microphone. But first of all, I’ll introduce you to people. So the first person is Nicole. So Nicole is an award winning copywriter and the founder of copy with Nicole as an ex-marketer turned copywriter. She works with agencies and small businesses to craft marketing communications that customers will actually read with a bit of a ghost writing thrown in for good measure. Spooky. Nicole is who you contact when you want a kind and collaborative pair of hands to guide you through the copywriting process. She’s a dream to work with. I love that you’ve written it yourself and described yourself as a dream to work with.
Nicole Sergi
If I don’t say so myself.
Kate Toon
Yes, if I don’t say so myself. And will take most of your feedback on board unless you want to incorporate the term pocket rocket into the copy. That’s where she’ll draw the line. I love that I draw the line innovative and passionate. I will not use enough.
Nicole Sergi
Fair enough
Kate Toon
Sorry, they’re on my my poor list. Let’s talk about Zoe. Zoe is an award winning copywriter, speaker, author, disability advocate and journalist who’s been published hundreds of times around the globe. Zoe uses the raw power of storytelling to capture hearts and minds. A fierce advocate for disability mental illness and chronic illness. Zoe candidly speaks and writes about her experiences with firebrand fibromyalgia, and diagnosis. Oh my god, I can’t say some of these undiagnosed adenomyosis, bipolar anxiety and autism to smash stigma, create change, and help others know they aren’t alone. Recently, she’s been working on her first book can’t wait to hear about this, about her experiences as a disabled journalist and our hometime survival in the black summer bushfires. Wow. Look, let’s get started. I’m going to start with you, Nicole, and I’m just gonna go straight into it. Okay, um, no, nothing spooky here. Why do you think you won this New Business of the Year? Give me three reasons. Come on. It’s awful. What an awful question.
Nicole Sergi
Two big questions. Well, I think the writing aside, I’m pretty easy to work with. And I’m not too precious about my copy. So I think people have this misconception about writing that it’s sitting solo at a laptop, you know, in the middle of the night, smoking a pipe.
Kate Toon
Well I mean, I do smoke a pipe.
Nicole Sergi
But I mean, I think writing is and it should be much more sort of collaborative process. So I’m not the sort of copywriter that’s been a blast or your feedback or get insulted if you have a man’s and that’s not to say that I don’t take responsibility for the finished product or accept any old copy. But I’ve got a good handle on what kind of feedback will improve the copy, make it sound a bit dodgy or kind of make no difference. And I guess as well, I don’t overcommit or over promise, I generally know what I can achieve and how long it will take me so I can stick to timelines and deadlines. And I really, really wish that I was that sort of copywriter that could chew up briefs and spit them out in record time. But, you know, that’s just not me. And I guess to that, speaking to that, as well, I’m just also really honest, I think, you know, I don’t sit on zooms and talk a whole load of BS and then get off and think of holy hatbox. How am I going to deliver that work? Like, I’ve won jobs when I’ve been upfront and said, Look, this isn’t my area of expertise, but this is how I would approach the work and this is how much it would cost which I think is really important because some of my clients are small business owners themselves and they don’t have these crazily deep pockets. So if they’re investing their budget with you, it’s a big deal. And it’s all about being kind of honest and building that trust.
Kate Toon
Wow, I love that so much we could dig into there. I mean, I think you sound like you have a very cool head on your shoulders, it took me a long time to get to where you are, I think but there seems to be there’s a measured pneus about you, you made me feel reassured just in that little bit of conversation. And you’re so right. That’s what clients want, you’re not there to be some hilarious entertainer, or a big salesman, you’re actually like their partner in this journey, which I know sounds a bit wonky, but you know, you’re there to make them feel comfortable and safe. And that they can say what they need to say. And that they’re going to get the copy done on time, and is not going to be a drama. And I think one of the things you touched on there, which I think is so important, is I think we some clients are frightened about giving feedback on copy, they’re worried they’re gonna upset the copywriter.
Nicole Sergi
Oh definitely.
Kate Toon
And if that’s the way you feel, then it’s kind of I don’t know, like, I felt like that with creatives before. It’s like, I’m scared to tell them that I don’t like it. And then the whole relationships, but it so how do you make clients feel comfortable? Like, what have you got any tricks? Is there anything that you do to just listen, actively listen?
Nicole Sergi
and I think I’m open about sort of that feedback process from the get go. And I reinforced that along the way. And I think one of the best ways to be a good writer is to be a good listener, as well. So I really prioritize that sort of when taking the brief. And I think giving feedback can be such a tricky process, but at the same time, I actually have more trouble when clients give less feedback, you know, saying sort of handing over coffee and having it come back say, yep, perfect. No notes.
Kate Toon
I hate that. Yeah, I want a bit of to and fro, I want a bit of skin in the game. I want them to feel ownership and ownership means they need to be able to open, be open and express. I think you’re right. Active listening is a huge part of copywriting. And another huge part of copywriting is storytelling, which is a beautiful segue into Zoe. Because I think that’s something that you know, you run through all your writing, whether it’s for clients or for yourself, but you were the winner. You could have won storytelling copywriter a year, but you’re actually diversity champion of the year. Talk to me about that. Why do you think you won? What do you think it is that you do well, in that diversity area Zoe.
Zoe Simmons
I mean, firstly, I want to acknowledge that I am a white person winning a Diversity Award, which I think is not, I want to acknowledge that. But something that we don’t often see in the business space is disability, we don’t see it represented, we don’t see accessibility as a priority. And I think that’s a really big problem. And as an autistic person, I have a really deep sense of social justice, I can’t see something and not want to make a change that is just integral to me, I have always just wanted to make a difference. However, that is, and I didn’t always know what that was when I was growing up. But especially when I started realizing I was disabled, when I started developing chronic pain, when I started needing to use mobility aids and connecting with the disability community. So many people just aren’t ever really thought of and access needs aren’t considered that often an afterthought. And, you know, the disability community traditionally has not been heard, we are only just kind of getting some representation. So I just wanted to use my lived experience to kind of transmute that darkness and make some kind of a difference for the community. And while I don’t need all that many accessibility things, like for example, I do need a ramp to get in if I’m using my wheelchair, and making sure like accessible bathrooms, for example. But so many other things aren’t considered like people that are hearing impaired and vision impaired and have intellectual disabilities and so many other things, these things are never really considered or implemented. And it’s just something I constantly have to tell people. So I, it’s one of the things that I do find a lot for as well as, you know, seeing issues about the disability community in the community and wanting to create change, whether that’s transport, whether it’s the medical system, and, you know, so many disabled people are entrepreneurs and business owners because the traditional workplace is not accessible, because people won’t do remote work, because people won’t consider flexible hours because like, Oh, you must do this traditional way of working in-person nine till five, five days a week, and that just doesn’t work for I’d say most people, but especially disability community flexibility is so important. So I just, I don’t know, any issue I see. I just kind of run with it and want to create change. And I am a very good storyteller. And I don’t have as much about myself to say, but I do love writing stories. And I think they are so powerful for creating change and helping show other perspectives that we don’t often see. So to be able to combine that with my advocacy with my speaking with my journalism and also provide that knowledge to my clients. When I’m doing copywriting I think that’s so powerful. And I think I won because this is something that lights up my fire, like, lights up my soul. I’ve never felt so dedicated to something as I do about the disability community and making things better. And I think those things benefit not just disabled community, but everyone and you know, one in five Australians are actually disabled. So chances are, you know, someone that’s disabled and a lot of them are invisible and dynamic. And there’s a good chance you can become disabled, it just takes a cold or a flu or an injury. And you know, age disables you too. So these things benefit, everybody. Love it.
Kate Toon
Love it. There’s so much I could dig into there. I mean, first of all, the name of the award diversity, it was an interesting choice, I guess, you know, we wanted to have an award that champion people who gave other people’s voices, whether that was via gender, sexuality, disability, whatever. And obviously, we can only award the people who entered so I don’t think you should feel in any way negative about the fact that you’re a white person winning the award, because I think it’s about highlighting voices of the unheard. And I think that’s something that you do very well, what you were talking about there. You know, I think we need people to shine a light on this, because I think, you know, as an able bodied person, it’s not something you think about every minute of the day, you know, you’re just living your life. And as you said, Any minutes, I could be part of your community, and then it’s going to be my major concern. So shouldn’t it be a bit of a concern now, and I think, you know, the fact that you champion that and shine a light on lots of aspects, because it’s not just the disability, but the illness. And the the norms, you know, even something I was talking about in my book is how much the world rewards early birds, you know, people who couldn’t get up early, go to the gym at 6am, and do their things. And so many people for so many reasons, cannot get up and hit the day like that. And they’re somehow therefore seen as lazy or unproductive, or not part of society. It’s very interesting. And I love that you’re bringing that to light. So let’s, let’s dig into this a little bit more. When people are trying to write inclusive copy, you know, whether they’re a brand or a copywriter, I think there’s a fear isn’t there, there’s a fear that we’re going to get it wrong, they were going to use the wrong term that we’re going to, you know, in some way insult people. And so therefore, it stops us from doing it at all. Like, let’s just not mention it. Yeah. So what are some mistakes you see people making when they’re trying to be inclusive in their copy, and maybe some ways to help them improve on that.
Zoe Simmons
I mean, I think not just disability, but in terms of diversity, also, considering, you know, people of color and LGBTQIA plus community is just not just remembering that people are different people have diverse things about them. And you know, you have to remember that, you know, disabled people exist, that LGBTQIA plus exists. So you know, for example, I see a lot of people just saying, like he or she, but that brought out a whole bunch of people like transgender people and non binary people, and intersex people and so many other things. And in terms of disability, a lot of things I see, would be like, not having alt text, for example, so that someone using a screen reader can’t see what the image is. So an image description is so important on social media, on your website, and our descriptions. And I know alt descriptions are also you know, good putting keywords in there. But you also have to make sure that it actually says what it is. So it’s, you know, actually doing its job, which is for someone who can’t see, to be able to see what it is. And other things I say are like really fancy fonts that you can’t actually read. Like, it’s so difficult for me and I am a sighted person. So, you know, that’s really important. And color contrasting is something and a lot of events. I see people don’t even consider accessibility, like, already websites, like so many things, not one mention of accessibility, and you have to always contact them and call them and it’s so exhausting when you have to do that every time you leave the house.
Kate Toon
I mean, I think as well. The other thing that I find, I mean, I think as well. People have to just you try, you may not get it exactly right. You know, you may use the wrong term, you may get it wrong, but if you’re open to trying and maybe consulting with someone like you, and then also be open to that criticism so if you do make a mistake, and you do use the wrong word, you know, put your hands up and say I am sorry, I’m learning thank you for improving my knowledge, because I think that effort to try is appreciated and the effort to learn is appreciated. But the thing sometimes I find really challenging, is brands that are all rah, rah, rah, we are open to diversity, we’re open to accessibility. And yet, they don’t, they, they say it in the words, but they don’t show it in their actions, you know, so, you know, we believe in diversity, and everyone’s included. And as you said, there’s no ramp at the event, or you kind of get in the toilets, or there’s no transcript on the podcast, or there’s no alt text on the images. And it’s like, you’re saying one thing, and you’re doing another? So backing up the exposition with the reality? I think that’s really important as well, like, there’s some of the things you mentioned, they’re just basic accessibility issues that most sites miss, right, it’s really challenging.
Zoe Simmons
Yeah, like, oh, like, you know, camel case, we have hashtags. So using, like, if you’ve got two words, having this first letter capitalized, people can actually read them really simple things that don’t actually take any extra time. And they make a world of difference and help people that are normally excluded. So you know, it’s okay, if you do the wrong thing, you just have to try and be willing to listen. And we’ve, like the disabled community has so many resources out there, like just Google it. It’s not hard.
Kate Toon
it’s not that hard. We actually if you’re listening to this podcast at the bottom of the Clever Copywriting School, we have a diversity link. And in there, we have lots of resources about all different aspects and a policy and lots of different hints and tips. But obviously, as well, at the end of this podcast, I’ll share a link to Zoe’s website and LinkedIn and you can follow her there for more advice. This is slightly feels slightly incongress that we’ve jammed you two together on this episode cuz I’m gonna flip to a different kind of side of things now, and ask Nicole about, you know, we were talking there about common mistakes people make when they’re trying to be inclusive with with writing and with their branding. What do you see as some common mistakes copywriters make when they’re trying to start out as a new business? You know, like, again, probably accessibility on their website is one of them, but is a new business person, what’s one of their challenges?
Nicole Sergi
Oh, undercharging. Yesterday, today and tomorrow. It’s always under charging for services. So I understand when people are starting out, you might need to lower your prices to win work or lower your prices to build a portfolio. But I really, really think there are limits to that. And I think there’s no quicker way to burn out and really lose the joy and the passion for writing than under charging for what you do. And I speak from experience, I could weep when I look at some of the first jobs I ever quoted on. And I’m too scared to go back and look at the hours and figure out what the hourly rate was because I think I just crawl under the covers and never come out again.
Kate Toon
Yeah, I mean, it’s challenging, isn’t it? Because if you’re like Zoey that has a very distinct niche. And I’m gonna ask you about this in a minute. Sorry. But like, if you’re if you’re, if you’ve got a specialist in an area, it’s sometimes easier to charge a bit more because you know, the theory is, is you pay more for a specialist than you do for a GP and you’re willing to wait as well. Did you specialize Nicole, when you started? Are were you just a generalist?
Nicole Sergi
No, I’m a generalist. And I would still consider myself a generalist. I agonized for months on whether or not to specialize in a specific sort of copywriting, but it’s just my personality. I like, I don’t know, I like a little bit of everything. I don’t want to specialize. And future. Yeah, I
Kate Toon
mean, like, I never did, I mean, maybe a little bit into SEO copy, but I like the variety. And I think there’s pros and cons. I mean, so you would use in your, in your own personal writing and your you know, your writing as an author in a, you know, Article publisher, obviously, you write about these topics, but in your copywriting, have you niched into being like a diversity advocate in your copy as well? Or are you willing to write copy for an insurance agency that, you know, has nothing to do with that? How does that work for you?
Zoe Simmons
I didn’t purposely niche but I kind of have, I guess because I talk about disability so much. So many disabled organizations come to work with me. And I love that. And so many mental health organizations, and it’s so good to be able to put my lived experience into it. And that just makes my heart sing. So it’s my absolute favorite. I do still do random things, and I am open to doing things. But if it’s like finance, for example, probably not what I want to do I just find disability good, and easy.
Kate Toon
And easy and you’re passionate about and I think this is important, right? You know, when you’re choosing a niche, you need to be like, you know, can I make money out of it? Do people want it will I enjoy it? Now, sometimes you get all three which is a winner. But if you don’t really love it, it’s very hard to do it for the long term. So I did niche down into finance a little That’s odd, but I could only do it for a couple of years because the love wasn’t there. The money was there. People wanted it. But also, I wonder Zoey, like, I think there’d be such a service to evaluate existing copy, you know, to go to someone’s website. And you know, someone puts their hand up and says, You know what, I don’t think I’ve been doing a great job of addressing all the voices in the room and being conscious of that. Could you look through my copy? And tell me where I’ve missed the mark? Could you look through my site and give it an accessibility review? Is that something that you offer Zoey? Or is it? Is it something you could offer? I don’t know. Maybe we’ve come up with a new business idea.
Zoe Simmons
I don’t know how to do the technical stuff. So I probably couldn’t see. Like, what, I don’t know how to check if someone’s done their alt text, for example. Yeah, I could at least raise those things and miss and, you know, even just having easy english and language that’s simple. And you know, and a website that feels easy to navigate. I think those, I do help with things like that. And yeah, thinking how I can put my disabled voice into copy.
Kate Toon
Yeah, and just recognizing, I think you would be more astute at recognizing what’s missing. We have a member of DMC who does UX reviews, I should hook you to arts because what a dynamic duo, you would be you coming in as that woman, her coming in as Robin, and our Thelma and Louise, whoever we want to be. And, you know, tackling it on the both fronts, I think, you know, even just in the voice. And, you know, I think it’s so easy to write a paragraph, and address it essentially to yourself, and the people that you know, and your little bubble, and just completely forget all the bubbles, or it’s really easy on the flip side, especially if you’re a worthy brand to try and incorporate all bubbles, and then do a terrible job of it. Do you know what I mean? Like you’re trying to be so worthy and so PC that you actually erode the copy value and people like I see what you’re trying to do here and it’s really coming off as cheesy as, so I don’t know if that would be such a service. I mean, obviously, there’s tools that you use every day when you’re writing so you and your writing day to day Are you a big tool user or is a lot of it just coming from from you the Zoe machine or is it coming from AI or any other tools?
Zoe Simmons
Actually don’t use any copywriting tools? I know lots of people like AI but I’m just like it can’t a robot cannot write like a human can and have our experiences like I know they can do really well. I’m not at all diminishing anyone that enjoys them or is helped by them but for me it just comes from my heart and soul and you know the only tool I guess I use is to read out loud function on Word to make sure it’s saying the same thing that I’m reading in my in my brain.
Kate Toon
A little robot voice that little Arnold Schwarzenegger voice it’s funny to do that you can change the voice it’s I mean I honestly you know I’m running a summit on AI you’re both invited come along but I have not yet found a way to work it into my day to day without it feeling incongress and actually annoying so yes, I you know, I might start using the tool but then I get what it pulls out and I’m like I could have a written this better than myself and be it’s gonna take me so long to pull out the good bits from this. I wish I’d started with a blank blank page now Yes, I love a typo checker. I made a typo checker. I love a bit of Grammarly. I love a bit of that. But for the ideas, not so much Nicole, where do you stand on tools? Where do they fall in your business, your writing?
Nicole Sergi
I would agree with you what you’re saying about sort of AI tools. I’m a tool dabbler. But honestly, it’s a little bit boring. But my favorite copywriting tool is Word hippo. It’s my favorite online thesaurus. But it’s my favorite of the lot if there’s a better one out there more than happy to give it a whirl. But it’s my favorite one. And it’s the one that I use daily. So yeah, it’s a bit of a boring tool. It’s not going to reinvent the wheel. But that’s my favorite.
Kate Toon
Yeah, I mean, I’m a massive Google user. So I’ll be typing in, you know, 10 words that rhyme with banana, you know, and there’s just so many great little one-job tools out there. But I don’t want the robots coming up with the idea and to Zoe’s point, especially as you do a lot of storytelling, writing, you know, there’s a big notion in Google with EAT, you know, they added the extra E into EAT. So it used to be expertise, authority and trust. And now it’s experience, expertise, authority and trust. So they don’t penalize people for using AI generated content, but they do look for the humanity in that content. You know, they do look for the lived experience, which is very hard for a robot to engender, you know, you know, with your experience. So, with the bushfires, I remember the writing that you did around that time, and I’m just not sure a robot could have engendered the feelings that you had that day, right. I mean, what problems would you put into chat GTP for that, I mean, it’d be ridiculous right? Yeah.
Zoe Simmons
Like, how does a robot write, Oh, I thought everyone I knew was dead and my house is burning like, yeah.
Kate Toon
Yeah, I mean, I think they would chat they would struggle. Right. And I mean, this leads into the next question, which is about challenges in your business and challenges in your life that have impacted your business. Because I know sorry, I hope you don’t mind me kind of sharing this, that, that, that experience through you, through you for a long time, such a traumatic experience. You know, obviously, you’ve, you’ve worked into your story, and it’s become something that you now share to help others and maybe the basis of your book, but you know, how was that at the time? Because you must have, it must have impacted your business dramatically.
Zoe Simmons
Yeah, I mean, I couldn’t work. It really made my disabilities a lot worse. You’re kind of in this constant state of adrenaline and fight or flight. And I couldn’t leave my house because I was convinced it would burn if I wasn’t, I was convinced a singular tree in my backyard would burn and I would have nothing. And you know, I can’t see even now I see siren. Sorry, I didn’t see sirens hear. So I guess you can see the colors. But, you know, that still impacts me and helicopters. And you know, it’s really difficult. I was sought out a lot for my lived experience at the time. So I was overworked. And that made me so sick. But you know, these days, no one really cares. Like, I can’t get our stories accepted by news outlets anymore, even though people are still homeless. You know, we’re still traumatized. And we have to go straight into COVID. And didn’t really get a chance to grieve.
Kate Toon
Did you? Do you think that writing that experience was cathartic? Or do you think it kind of you relived it again, and again, and again, like was it helpful or unhelpful? And now you’re looking back in retrospect?
Zoe Simmons
I think it helped. And I think it’s also useful to look back and see what emotions I was feeling at the time. And, you know, my first article I wrote by hand on a notebook in the bushfires, I had 20 minutes of charge on my laptop, there was no electricity, there was no internet, I managed to type that article that 1000 word article as fast as I could. And then we had to drive somewhere, I had to hotspot, my phone to try and send it to my editor at Newsweek Comdata you and, you know, it did really help to also have my community say, hey, you know, I’m feeling those feelings. Thank you for not forgetting me.
Kate Toon
Yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s the kind of lovely full circle when someone says, I read your piece of work, and it helped me, you know, I mean, that’s, I always wonder, What’s people’s measure of success, you know, it can be financial, it can be ego, it can be whatever it is. But I think that for a writer, you know, I just had someone finish my book and post a picture of the last line of my book, and I’m like, I feels pretty good. And I’m not I’m not I’m not sure if I’m allowed to feel good about this, but it does feel good when I feel good about anything anymore. But I did feel good about that. Nicole, with you what, you know, what have been your biggest challenges as a business owner, you know, obviously, compared to Joey so everything’s gonna sound a bit Weebly now, but like, what, you know, starting a new business is challenging. You started not long before COVID. As far as I remember it, how long have you been going now? Like two or three years? Yeah, so so. So you know, you started COVID Hit like it on your own all the time, brand new business, no one knows who you are. How did how did you go with all of that?
Nicole Sergi
I think this will be a bit of a tonal shift from Zoe’s answer, but I think I was the biggest challenge that I had. I really underestimated the huge mental shift that’s involved from going from an employee to not just a freelancer, but a small business owner. And there’s just so much self discipline involved. And that was really a muscle that I had to kind of, you know, build up over time. And, you know, for example, I’m not sure when this will go live, but when we’re recording it, it’s in the middle of winter in Canberra. So it’s pretty frosty and without a boss breathing down my neck, or the threat of being fired. Really, I’m the only one that’s motivating myself to get out of my warm, cozy bed on a Monday.
Kate Toon
It’s really challenging. I mean, I’ve been doing this for 15 years, and today has been really mentally challenging. I’m gonna admit to everybody on the massive cry this morning in front of my team completely, like snot cry, because I’m just so overwhelmed by everything that I’m doing. I created all of the stuff. I make my own to do list. I’m the one beating myself with a stick and yet this morning I broke down because my boss is so fucking demanding. And I’m my boss. I have the opposite problem. I am too driven and too motivated and sometimes to my detriment. That brings me on to the to the next question really about mental health because it you know, in clever copywriting school, we do talk about colons, we do talk about, you know, proper you have, you know, and I can’t think of a single thing that we talk about now. But we do talk about mental health. And we’re open about that. And we do talk about our challenges. And I love that about the group. You know, it’s not for everybody. But I like that very much. We have a separate group called Healthy beasts where we talk about that as well. You know, so obviously, with everything that you’ve got going on, if you don’t, you don’t have the easiest day sometimes. How do you? How do you push on because you do strike me as very driven. Despite everything that you have going on, you’re very driven, you do turn up, you know, we started this podcast and you said, you feel pretty tired today, and you know that you’re here. So how do you force yourself to do the things when everything in your body is screaming, don’t do the things?
Zoe Simmons
I mean, firstly, I do listen to my body. So if it says you can’t do it today, I’m like, yep. Okay, but I don’t have any deadlines. Sure, you listen, you have to rest, like with chronic fatigue and energy impairments, you don’t have the energy. And so many days, I can’t do anything, even just sending an email or getting to my lounge room is a mammoth task. So I’d be kind to myself, and, you know, I have many different conditions, you know, chronic pain, chronic illness, chronic fatigue, also autism, and bipolar and anxiety. And, you know, sometimes my mental health is good, I find that a lot of time when my body is so crappy. My mind is just like, Yeah, cool. Love ourselves. Because body’s already doing the body’s already beating us up, not my mind. But I do really struggle with my mental health and often don’t want to be here, I have tried to take my life before I do, cry a lot. And it gets so overwhelming. But for me, it’s just, I don’t know, taking care of myself, but remembering that, you know, I am valid, and it’s okay to feel however you feel it’s okay to feel like shit, it’s okay to rest. And the world won’t end if you need to take a break. And I also just remember that people, despite what my brain says, my brain often says that everyone hates me. And you know, I’m horrible. And, you know, I’ll never achieve anything. But you know, you could look at the evidence and like, hey, actually, if everyone hated you, you know, people wouldn’t say nice things to you, or say, Hey, your work made a difference. Like, you’re the reason I use mobility aids, people have said that to me, and I’m just like, oh, even if it’s dark, I have to share it. And I do share the good parts and the bad parts, because it’s real. And you know, I don’t want to be this fake entrepreneur or whatever, that just is all sunshine and rainbows.
Kate Toon
Neither. I’m not gonna I’m not gonna blow confetti on Instagram. I refuse. That’s my one. That’s my line of defense. But I appreciate that. And I think, you know, many of us feel like that, that the world is kind of, I don’t know, not against us. But they’re generally, you know, we’re trying to make people like us, in the West, coming from a starting point of people not liking us and trying to build from there. But yeah, you know, like the response you get, I mean, I follow you on LinkedIn, and the response you get to your posts, and your recent posts about the airline. I was following that with with great interest, you know, again, just not something you would you would consider as an able bodied person as a challenge, you know, so, yeah, keep on keepin on. But I like the fact that you also listen to your body. And I’m getting better at that, too. I’ve got loads to do today. But I decided before this podcast that when we’re done, I’m done today, I can’t keep going. If you’ve cried by nine o’clock, it’s probably not going to be your best day. So maybe, maybe just give yourself a break. Yeah, exactly. Nicole, you know, obviously, you’re saying that sometimes challenges motivation, as we all have, you know, do you have your Black Dog Days? Do you have days where you feel like, Oh, God, what am I doing? Imposter syndrome? Anything like that? Are you how do you how do you manage those?
Nicole Sergi
Oh, I manage it by just keeping a couple of days free and my schedule over the month. So I build those days in so I’m not so jam packed that the thought of my burgeoning work schedule is so overwhelming. But I guess one would say and this might be mental health adjacent, rather. But one of the best things I’ve found about owning my own business is that there’s been this really lovely byproduct where I’ve had to reevaluate my relationship with alcohol. So I think like I’ve in my past, I’ve had a couple of jobs that had you know, this work hard, play hard mentality. So you would go out for work drinks with your colleagues and stroll into work the next day, incredibly hungover, and put in a full day, full day of work. And I’m not sure if it’s the nature of having a more creative job, or just getting older, probably both, probably just getting old. That’s just not an option for me anymore. And what that has actually done is kind of kickstart in a broader conversation with myself about alcohol and mental health and whether or not it’s the way that I was drinking was really serving me. And that’s not to say that sort of I’m teetotal of swapped all of my red wine for green juice, but it’s definitely kind of transformed the way I think about drinking. So it’s just been a really lovely byproduct that in that respects, kind of my life has changed because of my business, which has been really positive.
Kate Toon
Oh, oh, I’m getting good. Because, you know, I’ve been through that entire adventure myself. I don’t know if you do know. But you know, I used to work in ad agencies, and it’s a very heavy drinking culture. And you know, I wasn’t a big drinker before I started working in agencies, but they train you to be that person. And then your tolerance goes up. And yeah, the last couple of years, I, you know, I’ve I’ve given up alcohol and, you know, obviously not 100% Perfect, but pretty much and horribly. After being I’m nearly 50 realized that I’d say probably 80% of my anxiety and depression was caused by alcohol, because by not drinking, I simply don’t feel the same anymore. So the thing that I was doing to help with my problem, I thought was actually the cause of my problem. And it’s a horrible realization, when you realize how much time you’ve wasted. So Nicole, I’m, I’m with you on that one? Well, look, we’ve gotten we’ve covered some deep topics today, which I think is fantastic. And, you know, I want this podcast to be about more than how to use adjectives and write a witty tagline. You know, having your own business is the biggest personal development adventure you will ever have. You know, that’s why most people work for the man. Because it’s very much more challenging to be your own person and do your own thing. So I want to congratulate you both on winning your awards. I think you’re fine advocates for the for the clever copywriting community and the copywriting community in general. So thank you very much. Before we wrap up, I’d love for you to share where we can find out a little bit more about you maybe starting with us. Zoe, where’s the best place to follow along your journey?
Zoe Simmons
Oh, well, because I have anxiety and fear of missing out. I’m on effort. It’s so hard to keep up. I am on Instagram threads. Unfortunately, I’m on
Kate Toon
threads and threads. I love it. I feel like we can be our true selves on threads for now.
Zoe Simmons
Let’s see how long it lasts. Except that thread doesn’t have any accessibility. Oh, there’s like 00.
Kate Toon
But I have seen that lots of people have tagged as airy on that. And I said, Yeah, that’s one of our top priority. So I do think they’re going to work on that. But yeah, so everywhere. LinkedIn is where I follow you most, so I will share a link to that as well. But you’re everywhere like me, I’m the same fee everywhere. And what’s your website Zoe
Zoe Simmons
at WW Zoe simmons.com to you and I’m also on Tik Tok. I’m on Facebook. I’m on Instagram. I’m on Twitter, trying to
Kate Toon
find you and unmissable with your pink hair. And Nicole where can we find out more about you?
Nicole Sergi
Why hang out on LinkedIn? So either coffee with Nicole or just Nicole Sergi
Kate Toon
fantastic. you’ve narrowed it down to one good on me and I will keep doing all the things because I love it. I’m addicted to it and I can’t I can’t stop. You’ve got to have one addiction. I’m sure that is just how it is. That’s my little dopamine hit even though apparently, social media just strips you of dopamine. So again, it’s the exact thing doing the exact opposite of what it should do. Anyway, moving on. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. They’re really appreciate you both spending the time. Thank you so much. Thanks. It was great. There you go. All done. Thank you very much Nicole Surgey and Zoe Simmons, and thank you to chinzy from Australia for their lovely review. The podcast I didn’t know I’d been waiting for. As always, Kate toon has delivered the goods for this podcast and of being super usable nuggets of copywriting genius to assist the copywriting Pro or the novice to up their copywriting skills and copy decks. Thank you so much, Kate. This is a gem of a podcast that I never knew I needed. But not ashamedly, addicted, addicted to thank you very much. And thanks to you for listening. Oh my god, I’ve got the hiccups. If you have a minute to leave us a review or rating on iTunes or wherever you had the podcast, I would be super grateful. You can also head to clever copywriting school where you can learn more about Nicole and Zoey and check out links to their sites. And there we go. That’s it some heavy stuff this episode but I hope it was useful. I think it’s really important for us to be open and transparent about the ups and the downs of being a copywriter. So until next time, happy writing
