“Copywriting is a collaboration between the client and copywriter and I try to make the onboarding process like that too.”
Johanna Kohler
Are you a people pleaser?
Do you struggle with boundaries?
Do you give give give until you have nothing left?
Today we’re talking about boundaries, not just in client relationships but in the work you do for clients.
Our guest today Joh, is an SEO keyword research expert, and could so easily slip down the rabbit hole, spending hours on research so she’s learned to place boundaries on her services.
She’s also learning how to place boundaries on the number of clients she works with, and she has a plethora of amazing copywriting tools and some smart mental health tips to share.
I think you’ll find this podcast a refreshing take on what it means to be a working copywriter, the challenges, the wins and how collaboration really is the key.
Tune in to learn:
- Joh’s path towards being a copywriter
- How she chose her niche, or how it chose her
- Her biggest copywriting win
- Her lowest career moment
- How she onboards her clients
- Joh’s favourite copywriting tools
- Joh’s top advice on dealing with mental health struggles.
- Joh’s number one tip for newbie copywriters
Listen to the podcast
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If you like what you’re hearing on Clever Copy Chats, support the show by taking a few seconds to leave a rating and/or comment on iTunes or Spotify. Thanks.
And big thanks to Chippies5169 from Australia for this review:
“How fan-Toonistic!
Never say you can’t learn something useful from a Kate Toon podcast! So looking forward to upping my game!”
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About Johanna Kohler
Joh Kohler is an Adelaide-based SEO copywriter who specialises in writing website words that speak to the heart of your ideal customer (and to the heart of the search engine algorithms).
Her compelling copy will turn your website into a 24/7 marketing machine.
Joh is a Certified Practising Marketer with the Australian Marketing Institute and an Ambassador for The Clever Copywriting School.
Fun fact: Joh went to boarding school on a 300-acre farm where she learnt how to pregnancy-test a cow, drive a tractor and prepare dairy cows for showing at the Sydney Royal Easter Show.
Connect with Johanna Kohler
Useful Resources
Transcript
Kate Toon:
Okay. My name is Kate Toon, and I’m the head copy beast at The Clever Copywriting School, an online community and teaching hub for all things related to copywriting. And today, I’m talking with Johanna Kohler. Hello, Jo.
Johanna Kohler:
Hello, Kate.
Kate Toon:
Now, Joh has already been on the Recipe podcast. You may have heard her there. She is an Adelaide-based SEO copywriter who specialises in writing words that speak to the heart of your ideal customer, and to the heart of the search engine algorithms. Her compelling copy will turn your website into a 24/7 marketing machine. Wow. I love it. Joh is a certified practising marketer with the Australian Marketing Institute and an ambassador for The Clever Copywriting School. Fun fact, Joh went to boarding school on a 300 acre farm, where she learned how to pregnancy test a cow. I love that, driver tractor and prepared dairy cows for showing the Royal Easter Show. That excites me so much because, you know what my lifelong dream is? I don’t know why I would expect you to know this.
Johanna Kohler:
I don’t.
Kate Toon:
I’m really desperate to shear a sheep.
Johanna Kohler:
Oh, I’ve done that too. We learned how to do that at work.
Kate Toon:
I know, I just really-
Johanna Kohler:
[inaudible 00:01:14].
Kate Toon:
I practise it on Pomplemoose, my dog. So, I’ve got my own clippers, but just the idea of having that sort of shaggy, awful, dirty coat and then getting it all off
Johanna Kohler:
Oh yeah, no, we learned how to, it’s called to throw a sheep. We don’t actually pick them up and throw them, but it’s how you learn how to kind of grab them and get them into the position-
Kate Toon:
Get their little legs.
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah. Where they’re laying on you and ready to be shorn. I didn’t do that very well. And then, you know how they flick the fleece and they throw-
Kate Toon:
Yeah, yeah.
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah. Got to do all that at school.
Kate Toon:
Very satisfying. But you see, the thing is I’d be a gentle sheep thrower because, I watched the men in the video and they’re quite… They poor sheep were quite upset. Whereas I know, when you go to the hairdressers, it should be quite a nice relaxing experience. So, I would…
Johanna Kohler:
Massage.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. Bit of mood music, some candles, therefore the sheep would be happier and their wool would be woolier, that’s my thought.
Johanna Kohler:
You’re probably right.
Kate Toon:
So, this is why I am running the Copywrite School. One day, I will sell it all and go and run my gentle sheep shearing business. And I’ll only have about four sheep as well. So, I don’t think it’s going to make me a lot of money, but it’ll be very satisfying. Anyway, we’re not here to talk about sheep. We’re here to talk about copywriting. So, Joh, take me back after boarding school, when you left those poor cows alone, how did you wend your way towards being a copywriter, what was your path?
Johanna Kohler:
Yes. Well, despite the dream of marrying a dairy farmer and all of that, I did not stick with agriculture. I worked in sort of various marketing and the event roles across Sydney and Melbourne and Adelaide. So, I started, I wanted to become an event manager back around the time the Sydney 2000 Olympics were happening. And event management was kind of a new buzzy kind of industry then. I’d met this awesome chick in LA, who ran all these fabulous Hollywood parties, and I thought it sounded amazing. So, I sort of pushed my way into working on some events connected to the Sydney 2000 Games. And did lots of stuff in event management over the years.
Johanna Kohler:
Then about 10 or so years ago, I moved into more generalist marketing roles, spent some time in local state government here in Adelaide, where I live now, and spent some time in the university sector. And as anyone else who’s worked in the university sector knows, they go through big restructures, and I took a redundancy about six years ago now, I think, and by that stage, I had two small humans and I just needed something with flexibility and the ability to be part-time, not just for a year or two, but for the foreseeable future. And luckily, I stumbled across this awesome chick called Kate Toon and discovered this thing called copywriting. And there you go.
Kate Toon:
There you go. It’s funny, a few touch points there, the events thing, I started in events, that was my first job. It’s incredibly stressful. It’s actually horrifically stressful. You spend all year working for a three day event. And one of my first copywriting jobs was to write the brochure for something called Fire and Hose Expo. And I think I spelled exhibition wrong on the cover of 10,000 or something like that. I wish I could remember what the title was, but it was brutal typo. And I came to Australia just for the Olympic Games. So also with the redundancy, that’s my dream. I’ve always wanted to be made redundant. Were you happy when you were made redundant, or not really?
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah. I kind of was. It’s never a nice feeling, but it was funny, I had just come back from my second maternity leave and I ended up being seconded into a role because I couldn’t go back to my permanent role because they wouldn’t allow that to be part-time. And so, I was seconded into a role doing internal communications around the restructure and the redundancies, and the way that I was being made redundant was that I was editing a document that listed my role as one of the [inaudible 00:04:52]. So, that was interesting, but-
Kate Toon:
ouch.
Johanna Kohler:
It was a bit ouch, but, look, I expected. It was fairly common for that sort of middle management level roles to get thrown up in those sorts of things. And it was in a way really good timing for me, because like I said, I think my kids were one and two or three at that point. There wasn’t a lot of part-time offerings that would suit my skills at that time, there might be more now. And look, it gave me a bit of a buffer. I think I ended up with about the equivalent of 12-ish months part-time
Kate Toon:
Wow. That’s awesome.
Johanna Kohler:
I had always said I would never start my own business because I was always too scared, but that just gave me that little bit of buffer to go, “Okay, you can give it a year, and if it all turns to poo, you can just go and find a job.” So-
Kate Toon:
Yeah. I mean that-
Johanna Kohler:
… Catalyst I needed.
Kate Toon:
That’s wonderful, isn’t it? Because often, people say you need to have at least three months money ready, and that’s what puts a lot of people off from starting. But again, I don’t think anybody on the show so far, maybe Matt Fenwick, has actually consciously decided to move from one career to another. Something has happened that’s made it… You go, “Okay, I’m going to have to do this now.” But it’s never people are like, “Oh yes, I decided I was going to be a copywriter, and this was my organised flow.” It’s, “No, this happened and then I scrambled and then I became a copywriter.” And it sounds like throughout that career, there were various points where you’re doing bits and bobs of writing, but then you started as a copywriter. And when you started out, I’m sure, like everybody else, you were a bit of a generalist. How did you work into some kind of niche and area of expertise? What was that flow like? And how long did it take?
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah. So, no, definitely, when I started, I was, “You need words, I’ve got words, I’ll write words, whatever words you need.” And then it was probably doing your Recipe for SEO Success course, because yes, I had done plenty of writing in my previous marketing roles, but a lot of it was more brochures and hard copy stuff. At that point, I hadn’t done a lot of digital. And doing your Recipe course opened up that world of SEO and it really led me to I guess where I am now in terms of niching that despite fighting it sometimes, I’m known as the keyword research expert for copywriters. So, I do quite like keyword research and happy to help other copywriters and business owners by taking that task off their hands. So, my niche is, I guess, more broadly website copywriting and content writing.
Johanna Kohler:
I don’t have a particular industry niche, but I tend to work more with service-based businesses than e-commerce businesses, because they are two different beasts in terms of the way you structure your writing and things. So, yeah, I guess I sort of see myself as a website copywriter. I love helping small businesses connect with their customers through better website messaging and content, and at the same time helping them to connect better with the search engines by bringing SEO strategy into my writing. And, as you said at the beginning, my tagline has become that I speak to the heart of your ideal customer and to the heart of the search engine algorithms.
Johanna Kohler:
And I guess I serve that niche by speaking with my client’s customers. That’s a big part of my process. It’s almost a non-negotiable these days. I want to interview my client’s customers to really understand what makes them tick, and that’s how I can connect to the heart of the customer. And then I bring my SEO smart and keyword research into making sure that we are speaking to the search engine algorithms as well. So yeah, my niche is really SEO and website copywriting.
Kate Toon:
And I love that niche, because it’s not like I grew up, Joh, dreaming of being an SEO expert. I wouldn’t call myself an expert, but dreaming of working in SEO obviously didn’t exist, but it’s not even that if I had the ultimate choice of what niche I would pick, would this be it? I’m not sure that it would be. I always say that you pick based on three things, do people want it? Will it make you money? And do you enjoy it? And you’re lucky if you get all three. There are lots of other niches that I could pick, but they wouldn’t make me money. And primarily, my business is here to make me money. So, there will come a time when I can just write copy for wellness people or charities, but I’m not quite there yet.
Kate Toon:
So, sometimes your niche picks you. Little bit of chat about we’ve done a great episode on the Recipe podcast, if you want to go and listen to it, where Joh talks about keyword research. But we were just chatting, before the show, about a particular client and their challenges with keywords. And I think one of the things with SEO is, there are no black and white answers. And even with keyword research, even when you have all that data at your fingertips, sometimes still, it can be a bit vague. Do you know what I mean? Because I think that’s what puts a lot of people off keyword research, that it just seems overwhelming, there are so many choices. How do you pick when there doesn’t seem a right choice? How do you overcome that as a keyword guru? How do you choose the keyword and move forward?
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah, look, it is hard because yes, you’ve got this element of science and data, but there’s also the art of speaking to people and communicating with people. And I say to everyone, copywriting is a science and an art. It’s a mixture of the two. And when it comes to picking keywords, and I think I’ve said this to you before, searcher intent to me is above and beyond all the data and all the numbers that the tools sent to me, it’s about who’s looking for this term? What are they looking for? And are we going to answer that query with the page? So, and that’s where I find speaking to customers and doing a lot of desktop research on messaging and what people are looking for, jumping into Reddit threads and forums and things like that gives you more of an insight into what searchers are actually looking for. And that’s really important. So yeah, I mean it’s frustrating because any SEO question, the answer is, “It depends.”
Kate Toon:
It depends.
Johanna Kohler:
Sorry.
Kate Toon:
The thing is, you’re also trying to educate your client. The examples we’ve talked about together is, when clients do have a ranking for a keyword, and obviously that seems like a huge achievement and I don’t want to lose that. And you’re like, “Yeah, but you’ve not made any money out of that keyword. That keyword is not converting because the content that sits behind it isn’t quite right and the messaging isn’t right. And you’re really… You’re ranking in position ten. So, you’re probably really not…. That doesn’t really count. You’re not getting any volume.” So, at the same time, it’s trying to extrapolate that data and the searcher intent and the emotion and the customers. You’re also trying to explain what you’re doing to the client. And sometimes you get a client who is like, “I just don’t care. I’ll just take what you tell me.” But sometimes they want to know why you’re doing what you’re doing. And so, that’s going to be really challenging as well. So, you’re very brave to keep doing key word research. One of the hardest bits.
Johanna Kohler:
[inaudible 00:11:22] But it’s fun.
Kate Toon:
Well, I don’t think many people would agree with you, but we’ll… You’re being a weird. No, it can be fun, but it can be such a rabbit hole. And I think what I’ve… You are one of the ambassadors for the groups, and one of the things you help the group with is setting boundaries on your keyword research. Yes, you could spend eight hours. The client can only afford to pay for two. So, you do whatever you can in those two. You do your best job, and it’s still going to be better than no focus keyword, no synonyms and no thought. It’s going to be better. And there is no perfect choice anyway. Talking about perfection, so you’ve said you’ve been a copywriter now for six years. For me, it feels like longer than that, Joh, but-
Johanna Kohler:
[inaudible 00:12:01] I feel it longer
Kate Toon:
We’re just old and exhausted.
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah.
Kate Toon:
What has been one of the highlights of your career as a copywriter so far, or a win, or something you feel really good about?
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah. I mean it’s always hard to talk about your wins, but I’m proud of plenty of the work I’ve done. And especially when I do see my clients ranking for important keywords, relevant keywords, converting keywords, or if clients tell me that their customers seem to understand their business better, like they’re getting fewer silly questions that are explained on the website, that sort of stuff. But I can’t think of a particular project. I mean the big, chunky, big brand and government agency projects are great for my bottom line, but I feel most warm and fuzzy when I know I’ve helped somebody in their business. But once I was actually turned into a verb by a client, which was pretty cool, I’ve been-
Kate Toon:
Oh, I love that. You Kohlered them? Did you Kohler them?
Johanna Kohler:
I was Johed. I became a Joh. I’d been rewriting a bunch of quite complicated content on a fairly big organization’s website. And just trying to make it plain English editing, making it easier if for the users to understand what they wanted them to do and read and learn from the content. And I found out later after I’d done work with them, that whenever now they’re in house team are writing new content, they sort of ask, “Has this been Joed yet?” As in, has the content been written well? And is it ready to be published? Has it been Joed? And I was pretty chuffed with that.
Kate Toon:
Oh my God. That’s lovely. Look you up in the dictionary, and to be Joed means to [inaudible 00:13:31]. I love that. Thankfully, my surname is just right for this. I don’t know why I never called my copy Toon Up Your Copy, or Toon it Up. Being Tooned, I think, is something I should play into. If I ever become a copywriter full time again, maybe I’ll explore that because it’s very nice. “I was made into a verb.” That’s a fantastic win. Okay, on the flip side, have you ever been made into a negative adjective? What was your worst copy career fail?
Johanna Kohler:
Oh, look, I’m sure I have been. And not many fails thankfully, but they always hurt and they always get in the heart. And look, I hate letting people down and I have recently let a client down, which it came down to simply having too much going on at once. For various reasons, things in life and business got a bit crazy for a while. And I ended up letting a really lovely client down on something, which felt awful. And that’s been a really big learning curve to make me realise I need to do a bit of an overhaul, my systems and processes, and get better at managing those situations when projects take longer or start later than expected, because something’s delayed with a client and it’s the knock on effect that causes to other work that I have happening.
Johanna Kohler:
So, I need to get a lot stricter at guarding my time, not just for me, but for all of my clients. And I’ve actually been working with a fabulous online business manager recently, who’s helping me update my processes and helping me understand the power of the word no, because I’d rather tell a client no than tell them yes and let them down. So, I hate that sick feeling when you know you’ve let someone down, and I don’t want to feel it again. So yes, that felt pretty awful.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. And I think we’ve all been there. And I think, a lot of copywriters, because we’re very empathetic and sometimes pathetic, we’re people pleasers, we want to say yes, even if it comes at the cost of our health or our family or whatever. We want to say yes, we want to fit people in. And also, we are incredibly hard on ourselves. These expectations, one of the things copywrite clients will say, “Oh, the deadline is this.” And people will… As copywriters, we believe that, and we try and meet it. But really, the deadline they’ve just pulled out of their bottom. There is no deadline. They would like to get it done by then, but if you come back and say, “Well, actually, I can’t. It’s going to be this date.” Most people will go, “Okay, that’s fine.” I just pulled a date because you asked me for a date. It doesn’t mean anything.
Kate Toon:
And yet we will kill ourselves trying to meet this made-up deadline. So, I love that. And also again, something that Matt touched on, playing to your strengths. We can’t all be great copywriters, great keyword researchers and organisational queens, with Gantt charts and flow ones, something you mentioned there, which I think is the biggest problem most copywriters have as project managers, is the knock on effect. They absorb and absorb and absorb. The client is late, the amends didn’t come back, they miss their deadline, and you absorb all of that. No, no, no. We don’t absorb that. It’s like bumper cars, there is an impact and there is a reaction. And that means that the project is delayed. It’s really hard though, isn’t it? Why are we so frightened of that?
Johanna Kohler:
It’s so hard, and yes, six, nearly seven years later, I still find that hard, and got into a pickle with it recently. It is very hard. But yeah, I certainly will be being stricter in the future because-
Kate Toon:
Yeah, I think it’s, again, stripping that emotion out and being rational. “You’re two days late with your amends. That means I will be two days later. Well maybe not even just two days, because I had you booked in for this slot, and I can’t just shuffle everybody else who’s on time with their work to accommodate you. So, actually, now you’ve lost four days. And if you say that as quickly as possible, what’s the client going to say? They’ve just missed a deadline. So, you’re saying, “Well, because you missed the deadline, I’m now going to move my deadline.” They can’t go, “Well, God damn it, no.” They’ve just missed the deadline. So, we need to catch them in that moment. It’s very hard though. So, that is one of the challenging parts of being a copywriter, yes?
Johanna Kohler:
And I think that playing to your strength thing, or I guess because in hindsight, part of this as well was probably saying yes to something that was a bit out of my usual zone, and maybe that was part of the problem. So, it’s sort of knowing when to say no and when to be really strict on those [inaudible 00:17:45]
Kate Toon:
Yes. And the thing is as well, I’ve got big… It’s terrible because everyone always says, “Greatness happens outside your comfort zone.” But you know what happens inside your comfort zone? Nice, good work that you can do and that doesn’t stress you out. There’s nothing wrong with living in your comfort zone 90% of the time. That leads to a happy life, I think, anyway. Talking about a happy life, one thing us copywriters love is a good old copywriting tool. So, what are some of your favourites that you use on a regular basis?
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah, no, look, I love a tool. And as you and most of the crew in TCCS know, I’m a recovering AppSumo addict, and I have gotten some [inaudible 00:18:25] over my time, but I’ve gotten some pretty good ones, and probably one of my best AppSumo finds was Draftium, which is a… It’s a website drafting tool, which is a really great, quick, easy way to knock out a wireframe of a website. I actually often will write my first draught in Draftium because it stops me from waffling. And when you waffle in website copy, it is too long for a website. So, I can see what my copy might look like in a real life website scenario, and I can give that to my client. And I find it really useful, particularly for small business clients who are DIYing their sites. They can see how the copy looks in a real scenario. It’s not a design, I’m not a website designer, but yeah, Draftium, I love-
Kate Toon:
I love drafting, and we’ve had a few trainings, because my background is information architecture. And I love the structure of the writing, the layout of the writing as much as I like the writing. And I also understand, as you do that, the layout of the writing can impact the meaning of the writing and impact how Google reads it. So, love Draftium. Just to say, Joh is about to mention about six tools because she’s a tool junkie, as we mentioned. All of them, I will feature in the show notes. If you miss any of the tools that she mentions, I will add the later. Come on, come on. What’s your favourite keyword tool? Come on
Johanna Kohler:
KWFinder, which is part of the Mangools suite of SEO tools. Love it. I have been using KWFinder almost since it began, because when I first started in SEO, when I took your beautiful course, about six years ago, Semrush and IHS just blew my mind. I just had no idea where to go and what to do with them. They were just too much for me. KWFinder makes keyword research really straightforward, really simple and easy to understand. And it seems to be a pretty solid tool in terms of its accuracy and things like that. So, good SEO people have good things to say about it. So, I love KWFinder. Will love it forever. Love a screen recording tool. There’s Loom, which everyone seems to love. I use something called Berrycast, again, an AppSumo find, and sometimes something called Dubb. And whichever screen recorder you use, they’re really vital to help explain your copy.
Johanna Kohler:
I’ll always send a little Loom video, I always call it a Loom video even though I use Berrycast, with my keyword research reports, with draught copy, just to step a client through some key things you want to point out and explain your thinking, and it just makes it that much easier. I love Grammarly. People love it and hate it, but I love it. I don’t always agree with it. I often ignore it, but I love it and I use it, and it’s definitely picked up plenty of typos for me. And good old Word. I’m bit of a traditionalist when it comes to the Word versus Google Docs thing. I like Word. I like-
Kate Toon:
I like Word.
Johanna Kohler:
… Pages. Yeah. I just, I do. I’ll use Google Docs. I have some clients who love Google Docs, and I’ll use it for them. I’ll moan about it under my breath, but I can’t get into Google Docs.
Kate Toon:
I can’t. I am so team Word. I think at CopyCon, we should have team Word, team Google Docs signs, and do a… And I will download that Google Doc, convert it to Word, do my work, then put it back again. Pretending I’ve used Google Doc. I can’t do it. I can’t do it. I love all the tools that you’ve mentioned there. I’m a big Loomer. I’ve used up all my free Loom now. So, now I use Camtasia, but the whole idea of making videos at every touchpoint is one of the tips that’s coming up on the podcast. We’re going to be talking about that, how to use video to sell your copywriting. So, those are your tools. Love it. One of the things we were going to cover today, we’ve talked a bit about boundaries, which I think is super important. Another thing that I think a lot of copywriters struggle with is onboarding. Those first steps you take with the clients can really feel quite perilous and quite terrifying. What challenges have you faced around onboarding?
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah. Look, onboarding is tricky, and it is one of, to be honest, my processes that I’m reviewing and revising at the moment, because it’s really important to start the project off right, because if you don’t start off right, you’ll end up chasing your tail and things can go wrong really easily. And one of the most important things is that briefing process, that initial briefing, getting what you need from your client. So, like many of us, I have a huge briefing document that I need responded to by my clients, but I don’t make them fill it out and send it to me if they don’t want to. Some do, some would love to sit with it for a night and just go through it all. Others are just so overwhelmed by it, they want me to talk them through it.
Johanna Kohler:
So, I give them the option. And in our initial briefing kickoff call, we can go through that document over the Zoom, and I fill it out for them as we go. But the one thing I say to my clients, if you’re not going to fill it out before our call, you must read it, you must make some notes, you must be ready to respond, because otherwise the briefing call is a waste of time. So, just making sure you get that brief in a way that works for your client as well, and not being too set in your ways on what’s going to work, because you want the information, and the best way you can get it is to do it in a way that works for them. So, that’s really important. A couple of other onboarding tips is follow your client on social media. Just jump onto their social media and follow all their accounts, just so they see you do that and then you’re across what’s going on with their business.
Johanna Kohler:
And then another thing is, if they send you a bunch of briefing docs, particularly if they’re Google Docs and all the digital docs these days, open them right away. Even if you’re not actually planning to start working on that client for a few weeks or a few days or whatever the distance is, open all the documents, make sure you can access them. So, if there’s any permission errors, you can go back to your client right away and say, “Hey, I need permission to open this or download this.” Because it’s a bit awkward if you go back two weeks later and say, “Hey, I haven’t looked at anything you gave me for two weeks, but now I need to open it.” So, do it right away.
Kate Toon:
Yes. I agree with that. And I just like the approach there of collaboration. You can be quite dogged in your processes, and that seems like a good thing, and that’s something you push for. “This is how I work.” I always recommend that copywriters have a, “How I work.” Page on the site, and put some of that into the proposal as well. Things like, “I work in Word, you will need to track changes. You get this many days for amends.” It’s really good to say that and to be a stickler.
Johanna Kohler:
[inaudible 00:24:32].
Kate Toon:
Yeah. but the thing is, we need flexibility from our clients. And there’s going to become a time where you’re not going to hit a deadline. And if you’ve been a stickler all the way along with them, then they have a right to be back. So, it’s how far you want to push that and just making that onboarding work for both of you, as you said, which I love, you need the answers. So, you have to get them one way or the other. And if the client can’t jump through your hoops exactly as you want them to, what could you do to make life easier for them? Filling out a copywriting brief is one of the hardest things to do. And you’re giving this challenge to someone who’s already struggling with copy. Who’s already… Can’t quite define their brand or their voice. And then you’re saying then, “Could you tell me what your brand values are? Can you tell me what you want your call to action to be?” And they’re like, “What? If I knew that I wouldn’t need you.” So yeah, I love that. Copywriting is a collaboration. Fantastic.
Johanna Kohler:
It is a collaboration, and you’ve got to be able to collaborate with them, but on that as well, if the client is not willing to give you the answers, even though you’ve given them plenty of opportunities of how to give them, you just need to make sure they understand they have a role to play-
Kate Toon:
The consequences.
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. And I think this… Let’s be honest that this is one of the biggest fails with copywriters where, because you’re a people pleaser, and you have no boundaries and you have no processes, the client gives you no answers, but you are keen to get started. So, you just write something anyway, and then you give it to the client and they say, “I hate it.” And yes, it’s a great starting point. And if you’re willing to do that without any emotion and not get attached, you don’t put too much time into it, it can be the starting point that kicks off the job. But if you put your heart and soul into it and you write away with no information, then that’s generally where you just feel like a real brick in the boob feeling of, “I’ve failed.” But you haven’t failed. You didn’t have the raw material in the first place.
Kate Toon:
So, you have to kind of say to the client, “Without these answers, I could write your copy, but it won’t be what you want. If you’re willing for me to spend three hours of your budget writing something you don’t like, I’m happy to do that. Would you like me to do that? I can do that.” And then they’ll go, “Ooh no, I don’t want you to.” Now, I know you’re a SEO queen and you rank very highly for your own website, despite choosing a terrible brand name, which we’ve talked about later.
Johanna Kohler:
[inaudible 00:26:42]
Kate Toon:
Another thing that copywriters struggle with is marketing. For you, what has been your most successful marketing strategy? Don’t laugh.
Johanna Kohler:
My what? My what? I do marketing for other people, I don’t do it for myself. Look, I’ve been really lucky that, so far, my business has mostly come from word of mouth, repeat clients, that sort of thing. So, I haven’t done a lot of solid marketing, and I’m probably not ranking as well as I should be for someone who does SEO for others, but not spent a lot of time in it myself. But yeah, my socials are dismal, my weekly newsletter hasn’t gone out in over a year, and my website is in need of a big overhaul. So, for me, it’s been networking. Getting involved in groups and memberships like The Clever Copywriting School and digital masterships has been a big part of where I found work. And making sure all my friends, family, and former colleagues knew what I was up to, particularly in the early days.
Johanna Kohler:
I think in my first year of business, so much work came from former colleagues and friends who were like, “Oh, I know someone who needs a copywriter.” And so, all that sort of referral, just letting everyone know what you’re doing. But in saying that, my business is definitely at a point where I need to and want to put a solid marketing strategy together, mostly because I really want to get better at guiding the right kind of projects and clients my way and being really clear, which is what I do for my customers, is to be really clear about what they’re offering is and who they can help and how they can help them. So, I need to do that for myself. So, maybe watch this space on that, but yeah, so far, for me, networking’s been a really big part of it.
Kate Toon:
And I think that’s valid. You’ve built up a reputation in our community, and a lot of the work you do is for other copywriters. So, you need to spend your effort where your effort is going to have the most impact. So, let’s wrap up with some hearty, hearty, woo, woo stuff. Another little bit of woo, woo, as I get older. Well obviously, us copywriters are sensitive little sausages. What are some of the advice you can give around mental health and wellness and self doubt? Because I know that you’ve battled with all those things, just like everyone else has. What are some things that you’ve done that have helped you?
Johanna Kohler:
Ah, yeah. I definitely battle, and we all do. Like you said, we are really empathetic people pleasers as copywriters, and weirdly, to be honest, about probably right now or the last few months, I’ve been maybe in the lowest place of self doubt that I’ve been in almost since I started my business, which is weird, but maybe it’s because I’m not new at this anymore, and I’m being called an expert and an ambassador, and sometimes those monikers don’t sit well with me. I’m looking behind me for, “Who? Who are we talking about?” So, a couple of things have helped me here though, and one of them is a tip I think, Kate, you gave to me or to the group way back when, is to have a nice things folder, a place where you keep those nice things clients have said about you and your work.
Johanna Kohler:
And you can just read through those and do a bit of a superwoman stance and just remind yourself that you’re better at this than you think you are, particularly at those lower points. And another thing that has helped me is exercise. And I hate that because I’m not an exercise person. I hate gyms. I am by no means fit. But over the past couple of years, I’ve gotten really into swimming laps, and I definitely notice a massive dip in my mental health, probably even more than my physical health, when I do take a break from the pool, and I haven’t swum much in the last month and I’ve really noticed it. Yeah, I think, for me, swimming, it’s more about… More than physical movement, it’s the meditative practise of just swimming up and down that pool. And having that time, it’s a time and place where no one can get to me. My kids can’t get to me, my clients can’t get to me, my husband, school, work. It’s my time.
Johanna Kohler:
So, whatever works for you. If you love a gym, go to the gym. If you love riding bikes, which I love, but I rarely get the chance to do, or just walking and listening to podcasts, which I used to do a lot of. Just try to take a bit of time out each day to move your body and get away from your business and your desk. That’s really important. And, for me, that’s been the pool. And I went back swimming over the weekend actually, and I really need to make it more of a habit again.
Kate Toon:
I’ve been sick for a couple of weeks. And as you know, I pretty much go every day. And as you said, it’s not for weight loss or for fitness. It’s literally blue line meditation. It’s my mental health time. And I love it. And I actually used to have some headphones and I used to listen to music or podcasts when I swam, but I’ve got rid of them because no, no, I need to think, I need to process my thoughts in that time. So, so good. But let’s finish up with the two regular questions that we’re going to have on the podcast. The first one is, what tip would you pass on to your fellow copywriters, new or old? What would you offer them?
Johanna Kohler:
So, this is a tip that a fellow copywriter, Tegan Ang, gave at one of the early CopyCons, and I have it on a Post-it note up on top of my computer, and it is, “Just start.” So, whether it’s taking the leap to start your own copywriting business, whether it’s getting onto that project you’ve convinced yourself you can’t do or finally getting to work on your business, just start. And that’s been a really good piece of advice for me when I’m feeling like I just don’t know where to go. I just look up at that Post-it [inaudible 00:31:52] do something. Just start.
Kate Toon:
Yes, exactly. I love good old Tegan Ang. She was one of the first brave newbie speakers at CopyCon. She was wonderful. Okay. Silly question to finish up with. You’re going to be reincarnated, I’ve decided, and you get to choose what creature you get to come back as. What creature would you come back as?
Johanna Kohler:
I would come back as a dog, for sure. Because you get to run around all day or lay in the sun. People take you for walks and give you belly rubs, and you bring joy and love whenever people need it. So, I think that sounds pretty good to me. So, I would want to be a little puppy.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. I mean, who doesn’t love belly rubs? I love a belly rub. I don’t understand how people exist without a dog. I mean, I’ll say a cat is a good close second, but how do you live a life without dogs? Dogs are the best.
Johanna Kohler:
I am struggling with that myself, because I’m desperate for a dog. My little boy is desperate for a dog, but unfortunately my daughter is very terrified of dogs. So, we are working through that. We’re working through that.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. I really think we need to get your priorities straight there.
Johanna Kohler:
Sorry, daughter, [inaudible 00:32:54]
Kate Toon:
Yeah. “You have to go live with your grandparents. I’m ever so sorry. Dog comes first.”
Johanna Kohler:
She did have a very nasty dog experience [inaudible 00:33:03] many years ago.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, I did when I was little, but now I have Pomplamoose, and he… See, it’s just about finding the right dog. A dog will come along that will just eradicate that.
Johanna Kohler:
Yeah. She wants a dog. She says she wants one, but we just… She can’t [inaudible 00:33:19].
Kate Toon:
Just have to get a really fluffy one. Fluffy ones are good. Fluffy ones. Yeah. Really good. Well, Joh, thank you so much. It is always such a pleasure to talk to you. And where can people find out more about you and your copywriting business?
Johanna Kohler:
I am compellingcopy.com.au. I do rank for the term compelling copy.
Kate Toon:
Woo hoo.
Johanna Kohler:
Took me quite a while, given it was not the greatest term. I lurk on Instagram and Twitter. I will become more active, and LinkedIn. I’m trying to focus on LinkedIn so look [inaudible 00:33:49].
Kate Toon:
Ooh. Yeah. I love it. All right, Jo. We’ll include links to all of those. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Johanna Kohler:
Thanks, Kate.
Kate Toon:
So, that’s the end of this week’s show. If you want to grab more copywriting tips, then you can join the Misfit Entrepreneur group on Facebook. If you want to get more SEO tips, Joh is talking a lot about keywords and SEO there, then you can join the I Love SEO group on Facebook. So, thank you very much, Joh Kohler. And we have some reviews to share, how exciting? Thanks to chippies5169 from Australia. The review says, “How fan Toon tastic. Never say you can’t learn something useful from a Kate Toon podcast. So looking forward to upping my game.” Thank you for that lovely review. Thanks to you for listening. If you do like the show, please don’t forget to leave a rating and review on iTunes and Stitcher. Stitcher, you can only leave stars, but still it helps, or wherever you heard the podcast, your review will help others find the show and learn more about the wonderful world of being freelance copywriter. And you’ll get a shout out on the show.
Kate Toon:
As I mentioned, all the tools that were talked about today are on the show notes at theclevercopywritingschool.com. You could also find links to Joh’s website and a full transcript of the show. So, until next time, happy writing.
