“Speak to your clients’ clients. When you chat with the people you’re writing to attract and find out their problems, motivations, desires and, needs you can literally put it straight in your copy.”
– Lisa Cropman
Do you loathe marketing?
Putting yourself out there?
Performing like some kind of happy copy chimp to lure clients in.
Believe me, I know how exhausting it can be.
Our guest today, Lisa Cropman, has taken a different path. Instead of trying to market to many, she woos her clients one by one. Building close relationships, setting up contras, forming partnerships, and then spending her precious marketing time, nurturing those relationships.
It’s allowed her to create a steady flow of clients and enabled her to home in our clients she genuinely wants to work with. She also takes Friday off every week and makes time for regular dog walks.
Toon in to find out how Lisa has created a good business working with good people, and pretty much managed to avoid marketing altogether!
Tune in to learn:
- How Lisa markets herself
- How Lisa started as a copywriter
- Lisa’s biggest copy win and flop
- Lisa’s biggest relationship win
- Advice about contras
- Lisa’s work-life balance tips
- Lisa’s number one copy tip
- Lisa’s number one copy tool?
- Why Lisa wants to live up a tree
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And big thanks to Shannon_Morrison from Australia for this review:
“Another winning Kate Toon podcast.
Wait, what? Kate Toon sharing her extensive copywriting experience and insights in a new podcast? COUNT ME IN! I love Kate’s podcasts – they are always filled with actionable tips, hilarious interviews and no BS knowledge to help you on your business journey. Can’t wait to get my ears Toonified with this offering.”
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About Lisa Cropman
Lisa is an experienced copywriter with a London accent and a Melbourne address.
Like a super smiley Hannibal Lecter, she gets under the skin of clients’ businesses to create messages that successfully grab hearts and minds.
Lisa works across the industry spectrum but prefers to partner with businesses that help people and the planet. She has two tight-lipped teenagers and a vocal puppy.
Fun fact: Lisa once shared a doughnut with Renée Zellweger.
Connect with Lisa Cropman
Useful Resources
Transcript
Kate Toon:
Hello, my name is Kate Toon and I’m the head copy beast at the Clever Copywriting School and online community and teaching hub for all things related to copywriting. And today I’m delighted to be talking to Ms. Lisa Cross… And today I’m, sorry, James. And today I’m delighted to be talking with Ms. Lisa Cropman. Hello, Lisa.
Lisa Cropman:
Hi Kate.
Kate Toon:
How are you?
Lisa Cropman:
I’m all right, thanks.
Kate Toon:
You sound a bit terrified. Now, Lisa and I, full admission, we tried to record this episode before, when I was literally dying from the flu and Lisa had the kind of internet that was available in 1984.
Lisa Cropman:
Worse.
Kate Toon:
We were getting out like one or two words in a row. And so we’ve stopped. We’ve come back and we’re doing it again, full of beans. So let me tell you who Lisa is. She is an experienced copywriter with a London accent and a Melbourne address. She crafts messages that reflect the real value her clients bring to the table so they can put their brilliant sales out there with power and confidence. Lisa works across the industry spectrum, but prefers to partner with businesses that help people and the planet. And Lisa once shared donuts with Ready Zeg… Zel… I did it again. Zellweger. I’ve always thought it was Zegweller, but it’s… Anyway.
Lisa Cropman:
When you know her like you know me, wait, when I know, when you know me like-
Kate Toon:
When you know her like you know her. Whatever. So how did you share a donut with our Renee, and for those who don’t know, Renee was in Bridget Jones’s Diary. Okay. Yeah.
Lisa Cropman:
Yeah. I was working at the publishing house at the time that published Bridget Jones’s Diary and she had been cast as Bridget in the film. And in the film, she, in the book, she works in a publishing company. So basically she came to us undercover as a work experience girl to get the low down on what it was like to work in a publishing house basically. And we didn’t know it was her. I think we’d just seen her in that show me the money one. But we weren’t familiar with her.
Kate Toon:
She wasn’t hugely famous then, was she?
Lisa Cropman:
She wasn’t at all. She did have a little picture of…
Kate Toon:
Tom Cruise?
Lisa Cropman:
No, Jim Carey on her-
Kate Toon:
She went out with him?
Lisa Cropman:
She was going out with him and she had a picture of him on her computer screen, which we all thought was very odd. And she kept on bringing in donuts and choccy and all sorts of lovely stuff, which we thought was just a way to sort of ingratiate herself to us. But actually she was sort of fatting herself up for the role of Bridget Jones
Kate Toon:
To be a glorious size 10. Apparently. She’s like, oh my God, I have to put so much weight. I was like a size 10, nearly a size 12, all the horror you poor thing. [crosstalk 00:02:55] Anyway. There we go. Well, that’s exciting. Yeah. And so she got to see how absolutely tedious it is working in a publishing office.
Lisa Cropman:
I just don’t know what she thought, I’d be interested to know actually.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, well, yeah, you are her mate, just ring her up, offer her a donut, see how you get on. But tell us about that. So you’ve mentioned that you worked in publishing. What was your journey towards being a freelance copywriter? What were your milestones?
Lisa Cropman:
Well, my first job out of university was at Jay Walter Thompson, which is quite a fancy pants ad agency in London. Which was quite a coup at the time, but I really wanted to work with books. I studied literature at university, and so I always wanted to work in publishing. And after a year at Jay Walter Thompson, I moved to Penguin Books’ publicity department, and then sort of hopped around a few other marketing departments of other publishing houses before I ended up at Pan MacMillan as the nonfiction marketing manager.
Kate Toon:
I’m actually disgusted and annoyed by that career path. I’m so jealous I could spit.
Lisa Cropman:
Oh really?
Kate Toon:
To have worked at Penguin Books. I mean, seriously, that’s like my dream. But I also worked at a fancy pants ad agency. I think I’ve told you this, in Golden Square. Their main client was the conservative party, which says a lot about that agency. And I think I’ve told this story before, forgive me, that they had see through stairs, glass stairs. So as you walked up the stairs, the men in the lower floors could look right up your skirt. And my main job, which is amazing, was lighting the creative director’s cigarettes and picking up his ties from Liberty and sometimes going out and getting him a ciabatta, because ciabatta was all the rage back then. You remember when ciabatta came out and people were like, ooo there’s different bread, because this is England. We’d only had white bread for years and then suddenly it was sourdough and ciabatta, and it was very exciting. So I didn’t learn much. But that’s amazing. Non-fiction marketing manager at Pan MacMillan. Why did you ever leave? I mean, that’s a dream job.
Lisa Cropman:
Yeah. Well, I had babies. I left and I had-
Kate Toon:
Stupid babies, bloody babies.
Lisa Cropman:
I had babies. I knocked out a couple of babies and then moved to Australia in a very random move that was really about my husband’s midlife crisis. And so I came to Australia with the skills of a marketing manager under my belt, but not a lot of confidence to go out there and find another job in publishing in a different hemisphere. And the world had moved on and yeah, so I was like, well, what am I going to do? What am I going to do now?
Kate Toon:
And so the copywriting. It’s the same. I think a lot of people after they’ve had kids, it knocks you a little bit. It knocks your confidence. And I actually found when I got to Australia, because I was still in advertising, that my having worked in England hugely helped me get a job here because we were a bit ahead in England, especially in digital marketing. So when I landed in Australia, I managed to get a job as head of digital for Ogilvy, right under the boss of the digital. I think it was like executive producer. I think that’s what it was. I was like 23. I did not know anything, but because I’d done a bit in England.
And then the funny thing is over the years, I then got demoted as they realised how absolutely appalling I was. But also I didn’t have kids then, I was young and sprightly, and my boobs still pointed upwards, those were the days. So, obviously having this kind of leaning towards books and whatever, did that play into your copywriting niche, like it sounds to me like you’d be a great copywriter for authors and publishing houses? Do you have a copywriting niche? You said at the beginning you were kind of a bit of a generalist. So how does that work?
Lisa Cropman:
Well, I did start as a generalist and, I would say I’m generalist, but I’ve written for all sorts of industries, but really I’ve narrowed my focus now, or in the last few years, to working on jobs that bring me joy. That could be my tagline, jobs that bring me joy. And they’re essentially businesses that help people do and feel better. So health and wellness services, sustainable eco-friendly products, not for profits. And then I’ll step into other areas, particularly food and beverages, if they’re looking for a fun tone of voice, that lets me flex my funny muscles. But I have to be interested in learning about the businesses I write for. So learning good stuff and helping good people is really my niche.
Kate Toon:
I love that. I love that you’ve kind of made up your own niche. You’re not going by a particular industry or a particular channel, you’re literally evaluating each job as it comes to you and going, is this something I will enjoy? Is this something I will learn from? Do I feel it’s going to bring value to the world? And that could be anything from… It could be a small business accountant if you feel like they’ve got such a great vibe and they’re really helping people, but it could be a dream client like, what’s that toilet roll client that we all wish we-
Lisa Cropman:
Oh, who gives a crap.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. We’d love to-
Lisa Cropman:
I actually got my order in this morning. And I just sit there and admire the box because [crosstalk 00:08:18]
Kate Toon:
I know, the microcopy on the boxes and the whole way of communicating with you about your order. That’s the kind of stuff that I really want to, I think, I often talk about getting back into copywriting and I think it’s… We were talking to Narissa Bentley on the podcast that’s coming up soon and she does a lot of patient information. Like, teaching people what’s going to happen with their surgery or whatever. I really like that kind of informational, this is what’s happening with your order and we’ve just delivered it and, I like that. It’s kind of quite boring. It sounds quite boring. But I like that. Not the big idea.
Lisa Cropman:
I know what you mean. I find writing emails, those kind of emails, is the easiest because it’s just like having a conversation.
Kate Toon:
Having a chat. Exactly.
Lisa Cropman:
There’s not a lot of head scratching, like to think about the big idea and the clever copy of a website or whatever and conversion. And, there is obviously conversion involved in emails as well, some of them, but I do like those kind of conversational chit chat jobs.
Kate Toon:
The thing is, and I think that conversational stuff can be applied to everything.
Lisa Cropman:
Absolutely.
Kate Toon:
Even if there is a big idea, even if there is SEO, even if there is conversion, you just hide it all by the fact that you’re just having a conversation and you can’t see it as obviously as like, buy this thing, it’s like, Hey, look at this. I liked it. It was good for me. You might like it too. It’s still saying buy this thing, but just in a human way. I love that kind of stuff. So learning good stuff and helping good people. That sounds beautiful. I wonder, a little segue from the path of the questions, do you therefore seek out those kind of clients or do you literally, they come to you and you evaluate them as they come? Because it sounds like a lovely position to be in. You get eight inquiries and you go, “I’ll pick that one because they’re good.” Is that how it’s working in real life?
Lisa Cropman:
No. I sometimes, if work is scare, I’ll take the mortgage broker, because that in itself is a bit of a challenge. Well, how can we make you sound different and better? What’s special about the way that you work with your clients? But, it just means that I kind of go with my gut and I’m lucky enough to get good referrals. From people in similar spheres, so I work for a sustainability consultant. So she’s got clients that are in eco, in that field or they’re B Corp. So I think once you sort of start going down a road, you get more inquiries from similar brands and businesses.
Kate Toon:
I agree. It’s a bit woo-woo almost, but if you put it out there and if you say that’s what I’m doing and you focus on that, then it tends to kind of happen. It sounds woo-woo, but it isn’t really, it means that you’re more focused. You are going after those jobs, winning more of those jobs, having more samples, having more logos. So it leads to, it’s like a domino effect. It trips them over. But I like the fact that you’re honey about the fact that now and again, you’ll take whatever the work comes in. And at the end of the day, most businesses are trying to be good people and offer good services. They’re just not very good at it. So you can find the good in any business. That should be your tagline. I’ll find the good in your business, even if it’s awful.
So, it sounds like you’ve had this just dream life. I’m going to say it. Let’s keep going with the positives and then we’ll get to some negative stuff in a minute. Don’t you worry. What’s been one of the biggest wins that you’ve had in your business so far?
Lisa Cropman:
Well, I would say that every time I win a job, it’s a win. It’s a big win. Any time someone trusts me to be their salesperson in print, I take that as a win. But I guess when I joined forces with the marketing consultant, who gives me pretty steady stream of copy jobs, that was my biggest career win. We were introduced by a mutual friend and we just gelled. We just hit it off. We get on really well, and we’re sort of aligned in our values and the way that we work. And it means that to a great extent, I don’t have to go out there and hustle for work and she doesn’t have to go out and look for a copywriter. So it’s the win for both of us and long may it last.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, no, it’s wonderful. And those kind of relationships, you kind of have to be, it’s like being open for love. You can’t be closed off. When people come along into your life, that can be hard to recognise them at first. Maybe they ask you to do one job and you don’t realise that it could be the start of a beautiful relationship. So I really like to approach any kind of agency or person like that, as if it is going to be the start of a beautiful relationship and give them extra love and really pay attention, because you never know where these things can lead.
Lisa Cropman:
Absolutely. I’ve kissed a couple of frogs before I found my princess. There’ve been a few marketing consultants and agencies, quite a few agencies, that I’ve worked with certainly. But never ones that I thought, well, I’d like this to be something a little bit more permanent. I mean, she’s got me on her TV page, on her website.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. That’s amazing.
Lisa Cropman:
Which was so validating. And I have these relationships with other kind of service providers as well, where we can, not so much joint ventures, but if they need a designer or a website developer, I’ll be sort of one of their go-to people.
Kate Toon:
It’s so important to build, I often say in Clever Copywriting School, it takes like a village to run a copywriting business. You need that corral of other people. And of course, it’s great to get in with an ad agency, but it doesn’t necessarily need to be an ad agency. You said web developers always needing to refer copyrights, graphic designers, social media managers, marketing managers, other copywriters. But even like, as I said, your local accountant, he’s going to be dealing with businesses all the time and they’re going to be saying, “oh, you know, I’m working with a really bad website person.” He’s going, “oh great. I know a really good copywriter.” So you’ve got to constantly be building up your village and referring it. Doesn’t have to be some BNI, you have to refer six people a week thing. But just having that village approach and building the relationships is a huge part of having a successful copywriting business, I think.
And I think a lot of copywriters just sit there going, why is no one contacting me? And it’s because they’re not really putting themselves out there and, get your business. I’ve still got my business cards from when I started my business. They’re a bit sticky now they’ve, had things spilled on them, whatever. But those early days I gave them out to everybody. Like the woman who did the zebra, do they call it zebra crossing in Australia? What is it? The Pelican crossing? Sorry.
Lisa Cropman:
Not pelican, I don’t think.
Kate Toon:
Call the black and white thing. Yeah. I gave her one. Probably didn’t want it, but you know, you just give them to everyone. Tell everybody. I remember having a massage and sometimes the masseuse talks to you, which is horrific. And she was like, what do you do? And I said, I’m a copywriter. And pretty much halfway through the massage, I kind of reached into my bag and gave her a card. And she became one of my clients.
Lisa Cropman:
I was actually having a leg wax, and the lady said, this was quite recently, she was trying to sell me some new fat reducing set system. And she said she needed a new page on her website to…
Kate Toon:
At least it wasn’t like a, I was going to say a vaginal wax. That’s the wrong term, isn’t it? Bikini wax.
Lisa Cropman:
It was, did I say, it was bikini. It was bikini. And so she needs a new thing for this fat reducing whatever it is that she’s doing. And I said, well, let’s talk about a contra.
Kate Toon:
Okay, see, you get this, I love a contra. Let’s talk about contras. Because we haven’t got this in the thing, but people might not know what a contra is. So a contra is where you do something for someone and they do something back. There are a lot of pitfalls with contras aren’t there? So I remember way back when I did a contra with a business called Sherbet Birdie and it was right at the beginning of my copywriting career and they do these amazing 1950s pin up shots. And they did my first photo, which was kind of me at a desk, a fake desk with a pencil skirt. And I did a bit of website for them and it was beautiful. And I loved that photo, used it for years. But I see a lot of people doing contras and them going horribly wrong. Have yo had bad experiences, good experiences?
Lisa Cropman:
Well, I haven’t had a bad experience. I’ve done a contra with a photographer. She did my headshots and I wrote some copy. The first ever job I did in Australia was for a friend who was a florist. I did their website copy. I’d never done website copy before. And she kept my house full of flowers for a couple of weeks. She probably got-
Kate Toon:
That’s lovely, isn’t it.
Lisa Cropman:
She probably got the better deal in the end, but I was happy with that. I was stoked because it was really my first proper job. And I’ve got a contra coming up with a web designer. She’s redoing my website. Thank God. It’s a bit dusty and a bit rusty. And I’m rewriting hers.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, I think there’s a few things that you need to manage in that relationship, because as you said, maybe she got the better end of the deal. I think always someone comes away feeling that either they were hard done by or the other person was hard done by. There’s this guilt thing, which is a problem with favours and contras. So I think it’s really, really important that you treat the job as a proper job. You still do a proposal, you still do a budget. You still spec out exactly what you’re doing. Is this page 400 words or 600? How long is it going to take you to do it? All the things you would do are actually more important with a contra or a friend than they are with a business, because you could lose a friendship.
Whereas with the business, you lose that client and maybe never hear from them again. So really important to follow the usual rules of proposal. And then with my invoice, what I like to do is I still send an invoice, but I strike, and with the full value on, and I strike through the fact that they’re not paying that, but that they can see that there is such value to it, that they would’ve paid $3,500, but they’re not. And then equally I get the $3,500 back. But I think it often falls down when one of you gets sick for two weeks and the other person’s thinking, can I say something because she’s my friend or I don’t… It just gets icky wicky. So icky wicky, what am I talking about? So I think you do need to kind of put the gut, the boundaries in place. Do you agree?
Lisa Cropman:
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. The one that’s coming up, we’ve agreed to do the contra in the same week, because neither of us wanted to know that we owed the other one anything.
Kate Toon:
Yes. Yes.
Lisa Cropman:
And she’s given me her t’s and c’s and I’ve given her mine and it’s all going by the book. Absolutely.
Kate Toon:
But I think it’s a great way, talking about relationships. One thing I think, especially if you’re starting out, and it is hard to get clients when you’re starting out, we’ll do more episodes on that over the coming weeks. But one great way is to reach out to businesses that you admire and to offer your services as a contra. And again, that could be a social media person, that could be an accountant, or a bookkeeper. It could be your hairdresser. Anything that saves you money that then you’re not spending because you have no money and you don’t want to be outlaying money. And then obviously you’re building up a repertoire of clients, testimonials, logos. It can be a really great way to get started.
So, contras people, super important relationships, super important being open to opportunity. Yes, you will kiss some frogs. Yes, you will get burned. There will be some bad experiences. But generally I do think the good outweighs the bad. You don’t want to be a no person when you’re starting out. You have to be a bit of a yes person and just chalk it up to experience. But talking about the nos and the negatives, what have been some of your biggest fails as a copywriter?
Lisa Cropman:
Well, my biggest fail, the one that sort of racks me with insecurities. Sometimes. I can rationalise it now and I know where things went wrong. I was writing web copy for a private equity firm and they already had a website, and they’d added another service to their offerings. Something about mergers and acquisitions, which, I say like I know what it is. I don’t even really know what private equity firms even do. And that was the problem. Therein lies the problem.
They also had a very unique writing style, which was kind of like Yoda. It was really sort of staccato and very odd and I had to emulate that to fit in with the rest of their website. So, I struggled to get into their tone of voice. I struggled to get into the mindset of a private equity client that didn’t really understand what they did or what the client would want. It was just a struggle from start to finish and they rejected the copy and I just sort of wrote it off and just chalked it up to a bad experience. Never writing for the financial industry again.
Kate Toon:
It happens, doesn’t it. I think as you get older and as you get more experience, you recognise from the get go that this is not your vibe, that you are not going to gel with this. I think I mentioned to you before that I wrote a very big Australian share platform’s copy when I was starting out. And I didn’t understand a word of what I was writing. Literally would read a sentence that I had written and not really understand what it meant. I could identify that was a noun, that it was an EFT portfolio thing. And then I was like, well, what adjective would be good for? Well, innovative, okay, I’ll use innovative, no idea what I was writing about at all. Ridiculous.
And in that situation, I think you almost become an editor rather than a copywriter because I was just literally moving full stops around and picking better adjectives. It was awful. So we’ve all been there. Let’s move to some positives again. So with this being, you’ve got quite a nice run, I think. It sounds good. But what are some of the tools that have helped you along the way be a good copywriter?
Lisa Cropman:
Okay. Well, WordHippo is basically a thesaurus, but I just love the interface. I find it really easy. It gives you antonyms, it gives you rhyming words, and all sorts of things. I’m not very good with word vocab recall. She says struggling to find the words. But I know what I want to say. So WordHippo is open on my desktop the whole time. Swipe Files, I find really helpful if I’m struggling for inspiration. What I’ve done throughout the years is take screenshots of nice little bits of copies. So that could be a headline that I thought was really effective, or a CTA, or a little bit of microcopy that I thought, oh, that sounds great. I love the way that works. So I put them all in a folder on my desktop and just swipe. I just flick through there if I’m thinking, oh, I know I’ve seen something along those lines, but I can’t remember exactly what.
Toggle is always open on my desktop. So that helps you, you can time and work. And that revolutionised the way that I work, because just knowing how long I take on each thing, it was a real eyeopener. And it just allows me to track my time taken on different kinds of projects. And the other one, Rounded, not always open up on my desktop, but once a week I’ll have a good look on Rounded and see what’s going on with my finances. Before that I was using an Excel spreadsheet and a word document as my invoice.
Kate Toon:
We all did that. You have to start somewhere don’t you? But I think for me, I use Zero, which is an equivalent to Rounded and it was the first thing I ever bought. And it’s when I started to feel a bit more professional, when I started to get my invoices and stuff looking really schmagoo. But I love that you’ve actually shared a writing tool, a productivity tool, and a finance tool. Really useful. And yeah. Fantastic.
Lisa Cropman:
And your templates, obviously, your templates. The Clever Copywriting templates, which, before they came along, I don’t even want to think about what I was using to present work to clients or contracts. There weren’t any contracts.
Kate Toon:
It’s funny because obviously I’ve worked with a lot of start out copywriters and you see the copy and it’s just sent in one clump, Times New Roman, no spacing, just a big lump and there’s no header, no footer, no page numbers, no copyright. And it’s like, even if you just get one of those templates and put your copy in, it just elevates it. And it stops people looking at the formatting and they start actually reading the words. So if you haven’t checked out our templates, people, go to the copy shop. We have bundles with some great packs in their, newbie packs, legal packs, and then skills based packs as well.
So I’m going to jump to marketing yourself. How you market yourself. Because it sounds like relationships have been a big part of that. And it sounds like working with other businesses. Other than that, I don’t see you doing a lot of social media. I don’t see you doing lives on LinkedIn. You’ve managed to carefully avoid all of that, which I think sounds delightful to many copywriters. How have you sidestepped the need to do such obvious marketing?
Lisa Cropman:
Obvious marketing. Yeah, it’s a good question. I think it’s a mixture of things. First of all, I guess I was kind of scared to put myself out there, to step into my authority and all that kind of stuff. I didn’t think that I was original, or special, or had anything different to say or offer and every blog post had already been written by you.
Kate Toon:
Thank you.
Lisa Cropman:
So I just kept quiet. I kind of kept quiet. And then I think, as I say, I have these sort of strategic alliances that have helped to feed me work. Enough work to keep me happy. And when you’ve got enough work on your plate, the marketing kind of doesn’t seem like a priority. So I guess I’ve been fortunate enough to not to have to hustle. I don’t feel comfortable really putting myself out there. Still, maybe for other reasons, but not because I don’t lack kind of confidence in myself or in my skills as a copywriter, but as a sort of brand. I haven’t done a lot of branding of Lisa Cropman. I haven’t had to and I don’t really want to.
Kate Toon:
I think a lot of people don’t want to because it feels like quite a performance. It’s one thing to be a good copywriter and to have good skills. It’s a whole different thing to present, to make little witty short reels, and make videos. It’s a whole different thing. And I don’t think it sits well. But I think you underestimate, hustle’s a horrible word, isn’t it?
Lisa Cropman:
It’s horrible.
Kate Toon:
You are selling yourself, but you’re just doing it one person at a time rather than in a group thing. And you’re forming relationships. Really marketing is about forming relationships. It’s just done on a grand scale. It’s one to many. You’re just doing it on a one to one basis, which is, for anybody listening who feels a bit ick about this whole need to have a personal brand and put yourself out there and do the things. I think it’s a great solution. It’s like you’re just remarketing, but one to person at a time. Which has worked for you.
Lisa Cropman:
That’s true. I think marketing takes a lot of time, and effort, and motivation, and discipline. And I think you’ve got to be sure that you want to put in that work and get that result. So I guess, all the marketing and if I were to have like a massive influx of work, because I’d put myself out there and put the work in to market myself, that’s actually not the end result I want. I don’t want a huge amount of work because, as I’m sure we’ll go on to discuss, a huge amount of work actually would stress me out to the point where I wouldn’t be able to work at all.
Kate Toon:
This is it. [crosstalk 00:28:58] You have to think about how many people you need a month. Maybe you need four jobs a month. Maybe that’s going to come from one person, you don’t need to market at that level. I think that’s really, really powerful. I do a lot of marketing because I have a mass business. That’s my business, is mass. But I think either way, you need to set aside time to develop your business. Now you could spend that maybe two hours a week as a part-time copywriter to work on your business. And that could be making your website a bit better, because that’s your tool.
It could be maybe doing a bit of email marketing. It could be creating a leave magnet. It could be marketing, it could be social, or it could just be working on the relationships with the clients you already have. Taking time to give them a call or send them a cool article you find, or like their stuff on social media, but still investing in your business and investing in wherever your clients are coming from. And I’m sure you spend time chatting to the relationship people you have, the clients, just about life. It’s not necessarily to make a sale, but you’re just keeping the wheels oiled and things happy and perky.
Lisa Cropman:
Yes. Yes I do. I keep in touch with all my clients. Well, all the clients that I want to keep in touch with. I send them Christmas cards and whatever vouchers and send them interesting tidbits, marketing information, stuff about that, domains coming up for grabs. And I do always keep in touch through COVID, how you going?
Kate Toon:
That’s really important.
Lisa Cropman:
I’m sure that is what helps to bring them back. And then obviously a bit of SEO on my website brings me some leads and yeah, my strategic alliances.
Kate Toon:
I love that. It sounds very Game of Thrones, strategic alliances. It’s just being a human. It’s being a human and it’s like we’re having friends. It can be really hard if you’ve got hundreds of friends to remember their birthdays, and keep in touch, and remember that their kid has got a dental appointment or whatever. You’ve only got five or six, it’s a lot easier to keep that bobbing along. I think it’s a nice approach. It’s kind of where I would like to get back to you one day. Because that’s always my thing. I was just mentioning another podcast, I’ve got my little pads here. I’m down to my last one because I put the wrong phone number on them, got about 500 prints. It was a really good moment in my career. But, at the end of every job, I would send a little pad, a pen, and a Fredo Frog. How much did it cost me? Like 10 bucks to post that little handwritten note.
And that’s marketing. Doesn’t feel like marketing, but it is marketing. And as you said, I love that you’ve been sending updates and stuff. I think that’s fantastic. And that’s the way to go. Especially if you’re not a particularly exuberant human and you’re not willing to put yourself out there, because of the stress, then I think that works. So let’s talk about stress and mental health because we do like to cover all angles on this podcast. You’ve been in this game for a little while. You’re also in kind of a high pressure job when you’re in the publishing world. It can be quite fraught and a lot of expectations. Now you’re a freelance copywriter. How do you manage your mental health challenges? Do you have any or are you just like a smooth Zen cow?
Lisa Cropman:
No, no, no, no, no. I’ve struggled with anxiety and I’ve tried, really over the last few years, to get a serious handle on it because it impacts everything. Including my physical health, which isn’t a hundred percent either. So getting outside the first thing, and first thing for me is not 5:00 AM and I’m not running around the block. I’m literally getting out of bed at 7:38 and taking the dog to the park or the beach. But always getting outside and having some time in nature. It just, it’s a cliche, but it really is therapy. It really is.
There are proper biological terms for, I think it’s called biophilia, actually I work with a client who does green walls and grooves. There is whole science, biophilia is the science of how it affects us. How nature affects our system. So always getting outside first thing in the morning, just to make that transition between rolling out of bed and rolling into my office a bit clearer. I like to have a transition at the end of the day as well from work into sort of home life, which might be a walk. It might be playing some music or-
Kate Toon:
It’s really important. There’s a book about that called The Third Space, and it’s that whole idea. You know, sometimes when you’ve had a real job and people drive home, they have their commute, and then sometimes they just sit in the driveway for five minutes to get their head in the space that they’re now going to go. They’ve been a work person all day, now they need to change and become a family person. And sometimes you need a bit of third space.
That commute is actually quite important, because it allows you to migrate from one to the other. Maybe you’re listening to a podcast or whatever because flipping from complete character changes like that. So you’ve been a business person talking about marketing all day. Now you’re going in, you’re wiping, I mean, your kids are older, hopefully you’re not wiping their bottoms anymore. That would be weird. But you’re changing a complete role. You’re becoming a nurturer, you’re becoming a helper, and it’s a completely different, and that third space is really important. So I love the fact that you do that. I’m good at it in the morning. I’m not so good at that transition in the evening. So, that’s a little note I’m going to take. Do you take any days off in the week? Do you work a full week or how does that work?
Lisa Cropman:
Fridays are non-negotiables. I take off. And that really was a big game changer for me. I don’t know why I didn’t do it sooner. It doesn’t impact my productivity. In fact, it probably improves it. I’m much more focused on those four days and excited about my Friday off then I was when I was spreading work out over five days. Why? Why did I do that? I just don’t know. And then I didn’t have time for appointments and just the shit that you have to do for life stuff.
Kate Toon:
It’s the life happening. The life happening.
Lisa Cropman:
You don’t want to do it the weekend. I don’t want to work out all my bits and bobs on the weekend or do bit of housework. Whatever it is.
Kate Toon:
If you don’t cut out a bit of time for that, then what you actually do is you end up messing up the other days by having like some random vet appointment at 11:30 on a Wednesday. And it’s like, no. Whereas if you give yourself, earmark a day or even just the morning. I usually try and do that Friday mornings for my life admin and myself. I can put all the appointments in there and just hit them all in one go, because they’re going to get you either way. Life admin is going to get you. I think it’s so important. And there’s whole studies at the moment, isn’t there? Changing the working week and people wanting to not work Fridays. My big thing was not working Mondays. Or giving myself Mondays as a quiet day to ease myself into the week.
So for a period, I used to do all my briefing calls on Monday, because that was my start of the week. And I was used to that. Then I moved them to Tuesday and Monday was my day to just get through admin, do my Zero, get organised, ease into the week. And then by Tuesday I felt like I hit the ground running. Because it’s such a shock to the system when you’ve got a nice weekend. So the third space again, right? Got a nice weekend and then you come in on Monday and you’re like, I hate my life. Whereas if you give yourself Monday to maybe take it down a notch and not do any high energy performance things, client calls, proposals, stuff like that, it can really ease it in. So I love that. What about hobbies and meditation? Anything like that you do?
Lisa Cropman:
Yes. I had a lovely copywriting client who was a meditation coach and I did an eight week course with her, eight weeks MBSR, which is Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. And that was life changing. And I do meditate pretty much every day now. And that was sort of five years ago. So I’m a pretty good meditator and I do love it and it does help me become just a calmer, more reasonable, mindful, great people person. It’s like an escape hatch. My brain when things are just too much for the monkey mind, that let’s me just escape for 15 blissful minutes.
Kate Toon:
I need to get more into that. Ah, so important. Look, let’s jump to the final question, which is a super important one that everyone, I think is super valuable. If you were to pass on a tip, or a few tips, to fellow copywriters, what would they be?
Lisa Cropman:
Okay. Well, my first tip is to not be afraid to ask questions. I don’t know if other people suffer with that problem, but I know I did for a long time. I would take a client brief and then I’d sit in my office and just try and work out what I didn’t know by myself, which is just now I think about it. It’s like, why would I do that? Why didn’t I just pick up the phone and say, Hey, hang on a minute. Can you just give me some clarity? You can’t write what you don’t know. I think we waste a lot of time trying to find out stuff that we could find out a lot quicker if we just blooming ask the client. Or ask a fellow copywriter. So, we are writing about things that we often don’t know about. And I think there are shortcuts to learning. Just pick up the phone and ask the client.
The other thing is to speak to your client’s clients. Now these days they call this voice of customer research. But when I started doing it, it was just like I found this really great shortcut to finding out what the client’s client want. And I would ask in my briefing document, can you supply the name of three of your customers and clients that I can speak to, to find out what they wanted, where they were when they found you, all those kind of questions. Pop on the phone. It literally writes your copy for you. What comes out of their mouth is absolute gold. So I would always ask questions of your client, ask questions of your clients’ clients. And the other one is just learning to say no.
Kate Toon:
Oh, the biggie, that’s so easy.
Lisa Cropman:
That is a big one.
Kate Toon:
How do we learn to say no?
Lisa Cropman:
I’ve actually, I have thought a lot about this because I find it very hard because I was a people pleaser. Well, I am a people pleaser. And essentially, I like making people happy. But when it wasn’t making me happy as a result, something’s got to give. So I would always say, listen to the cues that you’re taking too much on, or you’re doing something that goes against your actual needs or wants. And when you forgo things that you love doing, like exercise or socialising, I’m saying to friends, no, I can’t see you because I’m too tired or I’ve got work, or not spending enough time on my own and missing that alone time.
I would say, think about what would happen if you say yes to a client asking you to work for the weekend, for example, what would happen if you say yes? What would you gain? And then what would you not be able to do? And what would be the worst thing would happen if you said, no? Those are the questions that I ask myself when someone asks me something that I think might not be what I really want. What would I gain by saying yes, and what would the worst thing would happen if I said no? And I think saying no is an act of self care and very empowering for people pleasers like me.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. I like that. I like the idea of playing it forward. So where’s it going to go if you say yes? Where’s it going to go if you say no? How are you going to feel if you turn down this opportunity and you see someone else taking it? Are you actually going to be bothered? Example, I was asked to do a speaking event and it was quite well paid and it was in Melbourne, actually. I was going to be in Melbourne today, but I’m not. Because I’ve been a bit ill and I thought, I’m not feeling great and I don’t want to do another trip. And so I passed it on to a friend who’s gone off and done it and they’ve had a great experience.
Today I’m sitting thinking, do I wish I was there? And I’m like, no, I don’t. It’s like, what would I’d have got? I would’ve got some money. It would’ve been an adventure. But the negatives were more higher than the positives. Playing it forward I think is really important. Saying no is an act of self care. Boom. I love it. Right. Stupid questions. Finish up with Lisa Cropman. Would you rather live in a hole in the ground or up a tree?
Lisa Cropman:
Well, a hole in the ground sounds absolutely horrendous.
Kate Toon:
Could be like a Hobbit hole.
Lisa Cropman:
No, but still earthworms. No, no, no, no. But, no, buried alive vibes there. I would rather be up a tree. Much rather be up a tree.
Kate Toon:
It could be spiders in the tree. Spiders. There are spiders. Do spiders live in tree?
Lisa Cropman:
Not one of those. Not one of the ones with spiders in.
Kate Toon:
Okay, cool.
Lisa Cropman:
I’d be in a nice comfy nest. I’d be in my word nest.
Kate Toon:
Oh, your, oh, there you go. Oh, boom. That’s her website by the way. Did you see what she did there? You’d almost think she was a copywriter. I love it. Like a sturdy oak with a really great tree house.
Lisa Cropman:
Exactly.
Kate Toon:
Okay, cool. I don’t know. I still think I’m a bit of a hole person, but there we go. I’m not talking about being buried alive with a bell to ring, to prove you’re still there. Anyway, there you go. It’s a stupid question. But now we know, and we got to use the word word nest, which I think is just, rounded the episode off beautifully. We started with Renee and her donuts and we ended with the word nest. So Lisa, thank you so much for joining us today. I’m going to share links to all your social media once you’ve added them to the show notes, because you haven’t, can you do that afterwards? That’d be great.
Lisa Cropman:
Oh, okay.
Kate Toon:
Add your website, add your bits and bobs. Not that you need it because you’re all about relationships and I think that’s amazing. So thank you so much for today.
Lisa Cropman:
Thank you for having me. It’s been fun.
Kate Toon:
Hooray. So that’s the end of this week’s show. If you want to grab more information about copy and all that kind of stuff, you can go to the Misfit Entrepreneur group on Facebook. As well as that, I just want to say thank you to Lisa Cropman. And also thank you to Shannon Morrison who left this amazing review. He wrote, “Another winning Kate Toon podcast. Wait, what? Kate Toon sharing your extensive copywriting experience and insights into a new podcast. Count me in, I love Kate’s podcast. They are filled with actionable tips, hilarious interviews and no BS knowledge to help on your business journey. Can’t wait to get my ears Toonified with this offering.” So that’s lovely. Thank you, Shannon.
And thanks to you for listening. If you have time to leave a rating or even just a review on the app that you’re listening to this on, then please do. Be very grateful. As I said, you can head to the show notes for this episode at clevercopywritingschool.com. We’ll have links to all those tools that Lisa mentioned and also Lisa’s site as well. You can leave a comment about the show. But that’s it. There we go. Relationships, eh. They’re a key part of your copywriting business. I hope you enjoyed this one. Until next time, happy writing.
