“If you want to be a $250 an hour copywriter, you’re not going to find your market with small business. They’re thinking about the money coming straight out of their till. Working for bigger brands allows you to charge more.”
– Amanda Vanelderen
Some writers write as a hobby.
Some to bring in some extra, but not essential income.
But how does being the breadwinner change all that?
When your copywriting income is the sole or main income to support your family, how does that impact the decisions you make about pricing, clients, niching, and the day-to-day?
Today we talk with established B2B copywriter, Amanda Vanelderen, about how she’s narrowed her focus but expanded her confidence. Tackling big brands with big budgets and barely flinching.
She tells us how her human-first approach to clients has to lead to a comfortable flow of return business and how she maintains a business approach while still wearing Lion King pyjama pants.
Tune in to learn:
- Amanda’s copywriting journey
- How she found her niche
- How being a breadwinner has changed her approach to business
- Amanda’s top pricing and how to be a $250-an-hour copywriter
- Amanda’s biggest business fail
- Amanda’s tip for established copywriters
- What Amanda wears to write copy
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And thanks to ChuckleComms from the United Kingdom for their lovely review:
“Bring. It. On!
Oh I’m so excited to have the wise voice of Kate Toon back in my ears again!
Kate has a knack for bringing her expertise to life in a way which is immensely human and practical. Cannot wait!”
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About Amanda Vanelederen
Amanda is a B2B copywriter and content specialist who got her freelance wings in 2016.
She is the author of Write Better: How to cut the crap and say what you mean, a CopyCon mastermind presenter, and lady about town.
Fun fact: Amanda started working at the local newspaper when she was 11.
Connect with Amanda Vanelderen
Useful Resources
Transcript
Kate Toon:
Hello. My name is Kate Toon and I am the head copy beast at the Clever Copywriting School, an online community and teaching hub for all things related to copy writing. And today I am talking with Amanda Vanelderen. Hello, Amanda.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Hello, Kate.
Kate Toon:
Hello. Amanda, if you don’t know already is a B2B copywriter and content specialist who got her freelance swings in 2016. Gosh, it’s only then? Feels like it’s been ages. She is also the author of Write Better: How To Cut the Crap and Say What You Mean. I have a copy behind me on my little bookshelf.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Very nice.
Kate Toon:
I will put a link in the show notes where you can buy it. She is also a copy con mastermind presenter, a Clever Copywriting School Ambassador, and a lady about town fun facts. Amanda started working with a local newspaper when she was 11. What were you doing? Were you making tea or were you writing front page stories?
Amanda Vanelderen:
No. Well, I was actually typing out all the faxes that used to come in with the media releases on. I’m ancient.
Kate Toon:
You’re so media.
Amanda Vanelderen:
I know. They used to just come out in one big room of paper and I’d sit there and type them out. And then I eventually I was writing those articles about six months later from the media releases.
Kate Toon:
My God you’re so cool. When I was 11, I was delivering the local newspaper. My brother subcontracted to me, his paper route and off I went, round the estate in the dark at night, delivering newspapers.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Did you have a signed subcontractor agreement with your brother.
Kate Toon:
I did not. I should have had one. But I just also love the fact that it’s the eighties, it’s fine for like an 11 year old girl to walk around with a huge bag of newspapers, into strange people’s houses and stuff. Excellent, great parenting there Toons. Anyway, we’re not here to talk parenting, although we may include it. We’re here to talk about copywriting. So you only started doing this six years ago. What you like, how can you call yourself a copywriter? Six years is nothing, but you sounds like you’ve been kind of involved since you were 11. So what was your journey towards being a full-time copywriter?
Amanda Vanelderen:
Well, look, I think I was actually born a copywriter, but I did not know that was a word I could use, or that was a real thing until about six years ago. So I’ve always been a writer. I went to uni to do professional writing degree when it was the only professional writing degree they had. Then I had a brief student working in a CD store, but that’s a whole nother podcast, that one. And then I’ve worked in marketing and comms and all sorts of things in corporate and government. Before we used to talk about content, before we called it content. And then six years ago, I went freelance while I was on the maternity leave, joined TCCS and never looked back.
Kate Toon:
The rest is history. And Amanda Vanelderen is actually to her claim to fame in the Clever Copywriter School. She developed the phrase, I am a copywriter. In the kind of Kirk… Was is it Kirk Douglas? I’m Spartacus. The article is deliberately missing for those of you are like, no, shouldn’t it be I am a copywriter. Because this is a debate that we had a lot back then and we still have it now when new people join the community, they’re like, “Oh, well, I’ve all I write for money and I write sales. But I can’t myself, copywriter.” It’s weird thing isn’t.
Amanda Vanelderen:
You know, for me, I grew up in the country and I went to a tinpot school, no shout outs for them because they sucked. And we had a careers advisor there who, look, I remember seeing in the big book he used to get with all the jobs A to Z that you could possibly get I remember seeing copywriter in there and I still didn’t connect with me that was something I could do. Because it felt like something that rich kids who could work in an agency and didn’t really need to earn a money interning. That’s what they did.
Kate Toon:
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone tell a positive story about their careers counsellor. It’s a bad job. I just think it’s a bad job. I wanted to be an architecture and without any… An architecture, clearly I am such a great grasp of the English language. I wanted to be an architect and with no, even pause for breath, the woman just said, “Well, you’re not clever enough.” And that was it. You’re just not clever enough. And she was obviously right, but did I need to know that, at that stage.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Still cruel.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. I could have gone along with an inflated sense of self and been rather successful. But I agree with you in terms of copywriting. Because I actually left university, I did English and I went and worked in an agency straight out, Saatchi & Saatchi because I’m so amazing. But I was a PA. So as I’ve mentioned on previous episodes, my job was to put out my boss’s cigarettes and pick up his ties from Liberty. That was it and run things up and downstairs and be shouted at. That was pretty much my job. And for some reason, after doing that, I thought I’d really like to work in advertising. I don’t know why. It’s hideously misogynist and vile.
Amanda Vanelderen:
My mom wanted me to be a health inspector.
Kate Toon:
You’ve been good at that though.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Look, I would’ve been good at it.
Kate Toon:
You would’ve been. I feel like you would’ve been-
Amanda Vanelderen:
But that’s not where my heart lies.
Kate Toon:
You would’ve been good at pretty much anything you put your mind to. And this brings me to my next thing. I know her head is inflated to the size of a balloon with that ego boost. But we’ve talked about this before. It’s old hat for us, but it’s not for the listeners. When I say you’d be good at anything, one of the things I noticed when you first joined the community, which I say every time and you must be sick of me saying it is that you were super brave, you rolled your sleeves up, you got in and every time a job opportunity came up, you went, “I can do that. I can do that.”
Kate Toon:
It’s a vet job. Well, once I had a boyfriend who was a vet seven years ago, so I can do that copy. Or yes, I once wrote a document for this company. I can do that engineering copy. Everything for you is an opportunity. And it blew me away and it annoyed a lot of people in the group, I’ll be honest. Because how can she be so good at all these things.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Hang on. I’ll just look around to see if I can find [inaudible 00:06:21].
Kate Toon:
Those members have left now, I removed them. I chose you over them. No, I’m joking. But I’d say now you have a niche, but back then you didn’t. What’s that nicheing story there? What’s your specialty?
Amanda Vanelderen:
Look where I came from in terms of my sort of corporate professional career was very much kind of government B2B type stuff. And so, and I had worked across such a lot of different industries. That’s the thing I totally recommend being brave and putting your hand up for anything that comes along. I was just one of those weird people who I did a lot of short contracts. So I could put my hand up and say, “Yes, I’ve done that.” And mean it.
Amanda Vanelderen:
But then when I started freelancing, I ran away from all that boring corporate stuff. I wanted to do fun, quirky, things like that. And probably about two or three years in had a bit of a health issue, needed to reevaluate and came back around to B2B. So my niche is in unboring B2B content, and generally that’s for tech financial services, SAS, big brands who have content managers and things like that I work with.
Kate Toon:
So it’s funny, you kind of went full circle. You thought I want to do wackadoodle, I want to do creative. And now you’ve come back to like you not necessarily where your heart lies, but we were talking about this on the episode of Joe Cola. It’s like, what am I good at? What can I do with ease? Like every copywriting job should not be the most challenging experience of your life. It’s great to go outside your comfort zone. As I say on this podcast a lot. But a lot of good stuff happens in your comfort zone as well. So you’ve now embraced sort of B2B copy, but making it unboring. I still think it’s quite boring. I’m going to be honest.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Have you read mine?
Kate Toon:
No, I haven’t read yours. I must admit. I’m sure it’s very sexy. So, I mean, I mean, that’s a huge copywriting win to go on that journey and find your niche, but what have been some of your other big copywriting wins? Writing the book, maybe, a few others.
Amanda Vanelderen:
You know what, writing a book was really just felt like something I had to do personally. I kind of wrote it and then a few months went by and I had all these brand plans and then yeah, a few other things happened in life and it’s kind of the forgotten book in a little way. So it was a win for me as a person, but probably not in terms of copy.
Amanda Vanelderen:
I think what I consider as a win changes as my copywriting career has changed. And I remember posting this in the group. I remember the win of, yes, I’m bringing money in while I’m on maternity leave. And I bought my mom a new microwave because she’d had one since 1979 and now the wins are in a bigger sense that I am the family breadwinner. I run the business that fuels our family. My husband is a stay at home dad. And that is a win for me every day. I don’t have to come in and get all my jollies out of my client work or anything like that. I’m doing what I want to do. There you go. That’s my win.
Kate Toon:
I love that. Can we talk about that a little bit? So you are the breadwinner and you recently had… Well, not that recently a couple years ago now, a really amazing assistant. What was the name for your assistant?
Amanda Vanelderen:
Oh, Mrs. Boobsworthy.
Kate Toon:
Mrs. Boobsworthy. But in reality-
Amanda Vanelderen:
Clarissa Titsbubble.
Kate Toon:
Theresa Titsbubble. But in reality, your assistant or your business person is your husband. Talk to us about that. How does that go?
Amanda Vanelderen:
That was the plan. That was the plan. So he was leaving a very long career in IT, wanted to do something different, work with content growing exponentially. We had this idea that maybe we could work together. And let’s just say one of the first days where we were in the office together, he didn’t really understand my way of head down, I’m working, that’s it. And I think I made him cry on the first day because he was watching the Oscars and then watching the commentary and then commentating the commentary to me while I was working. And I was like hyper-focused.
Kate Toon:
I do not understand people who think that at work, that you would possibly want to talk to any other human beings. What is that about?
Amanda Vanelderen:
Especially one you’re married to.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. I mean, that’s like absolute. But I briefly had an employee that shared the office with me. She was always wanting to say things like, hello, do you want a cup of tea? It’s like, no, no, no. I’ll talk to you when you come in.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Bye.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. Are you okay? How do I do this thing you’ve just told me to do. Don’t expect me to talk to you about it. No. What I think there is important is the breadwinner aspect of it. That you and I love your husband. He’s fantastic. But that you are the one that’s bringing in the dosh. And I love that connection that you made there that do enabled you to buy your mom a microwave. And this for me was really important because for a very long time, I’ve always been the breadwinner, since I started in my relationship. And that’s had its pros and cons. Yeah, because I do also think that being the breadwinner puts a lot of pressure on you to keep things, the money coming in. Do you feel that pressure, have you managed to work around that pressure?
Amanda Vanelderen:
I think… look Rod doesn’t work outside the home. G. He does a lot in the house, but yeah, there are days when I feel it. And I think it depends… We’re in such a crazy time in the market at the moment. So even having the end of financial year kind of rush that I normally had was about three or four weeks late, it’s still coming in now. But yeah, I do get concerned sometimes, but usually it only lasts five minutes. And I get to the point where I get, I get an email it’s saying, “Oh, we’d love to accept your proposal.” And I’m like, oh God damn it. So it really is just swings from day to day. But I do think when you’re the breadwinner that you… There’s no choice, you sit there and get that work done, you go and find new clients, you do what you’ve got to do because literally your family’s mortgage and roof over their head depends on that. So pick something that you like doing.
Kate Toon:
But I think that can be, it’s a bit of a stick to beat yourself with, but it’s a glorious stick as well, because like you said, it only lasts five minutes because you really don’t have time to indulge that thought any longer. You’ve got to get on with it. And that for me has been a real saving grace, this kind of like, well, if I could sit here and navel gaze and think about whether my brand is the right shade of turquoise or whether I need a new photo shoot or blah, blah. I don’t have time. Because I’ve got too much work to do because if I don’t make us money, then we don’t have stuff. And that has been brilliant for me. Because otherwise I would’ve spent months worrying about this stuff. And so I think being the breadwinner, yes, there’s pressure.
Kate Toon:
But there’s also a really clear path to pick jobs that earn decent money, to make sure you’re making the right money. So one thing that’s always been amazing about you is the way you price with confidence on big projects. You don’t get scared when the zeros start adding up, you don’t get scared when big brands come along. You don’t go, “Oh, I’d really like to do this job. So I’m going to automatically discount it before I’ve even given the brief.” What are some thoughts on pricing that you can share because you are very confident with that and you actually offer as one of the ambassadors in the group, you’re kind of the butt kicker when it comes to pricing, which I love. Because I need someone else to do that. And you’re very good at that. So what are some thoughts around that?
Amanda Vanelderen:
Look, I think I’d start by saying something that might be a little bit unpopular. That yes, we all want to work for a fabulous hourly, daily project rate. If you are starting out, you are not going to jump straight to that rate and you need to accept that. And it’s funny because you get one school of thought that is very much like, “Oh no, I can’t charge that much.” And they have the skills and they have the expertise and all that kind of stuff. And sometimes you get people who kind of think they can charge this much when they don’t really have the expertise to do it. So it has be something that you’re comfortable with. But I think you’ve got to familiarise yourself through the TCCS, the average copywriting rates, we share a lot in there. But it’s also just about what you want get at the end of the day.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Like how many hours do you have in a week? How much do you want to be earning work back from there, get some advice on your overheads, all of that kind of stuff, and then target it with the right clients as well. So if you want to be $250 an hour copywriter, for example, you’re not necessarily going to find your market with small business. Small businesses tend to think of… And they usually want to know it by the hour. And that’s them thinking about that money coming straight out of their till.
Amanda Vanelderen:
And we’ve talked about this before. So if you’re going to work for small business, you probably have to price it for small business. Working for these bigger brands now I do charge a lot more than I did when I started out. But I’m also offering, I think, a higher quality than what I was initially as well. I know what needs to be done. You can say you’re just the copywriter, but often you’re going into to look at content strategy, communication strategy, how to amplify it, all of that kind of stuff. You’ve got to earn your dollars.
Kate Toon:
Earn your stripes. I mean, I do think pricing is a confidence game. I do think there are foundational steps that we take people through in the membership in terms of, as you said, looking at expenses, looking at the hours, the money you need to make the value you bring. Whether you are in a remote area or a CBD area or what clients you’ve worked with, your experience, all of that. And then you come up with your rate and then the rest of it’s all about confidence. G. How big your, I was going to say, your balls are about how strong your labia are. And on that call, when you give the price, can you not talk first? That bit where it goes quiet and one of you’s waiting and the client’s hoping you’re going to say, “That’s negotiable. I can discount that. And you don’t speak.”
Amanda Vanelderen:
Don’t blink.
Kate Toon:
Who blinks don’t first, that’s it. The don’t blink approach. But yes, again, and I do think that’s tied in, I’m going to keep pushing this, whether you believe it or not, with being the breadwinner and having to do the do and get a crack on. And therefore it’s like, I can’t do this job for… I literally can’t afford to take on your job for $90 an hour. It’s not the job for me because that’s not going to help me make the money that I need to make my family. So bye-bye.
Kate Toon:
But I love what you said there about picking the right clients. You’re not going to earn $300 an hour with people who are running a startup yoga studio, be realistic. And as you said, be aware of your level of experience and what you can bring to the table. So, I mean, that’s a big win. We’ve strayed from the path a little bit there. In your career so far, what do you think has been one of the biggest wins for you? Oh no. We talked about that. Sorry, what has been one of the biggest fails for you? Let’s talk about something miserable.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Oh God, how long have you got? Look, I think that any copywriter is going to have a long list of what they consider fails. And a lot of them will be quite similar and it’s totally fine. And spoiler alert, it never ends. You will have different types of failures through the different phases of your career. And I still put my head in my hand some days on things that have happened. But for me, I think that the worst failures come along when you don’t look after yourself and whether that’s not looking after how much work you’re taking on. For me, that was always the really big thing, too much, working all hours of the day, not looking after myself. And specifically within that sort of space, I can remember times starting out where I was overwhelmed with all this work and you’d go into a job that you were, that was due on Monday close of business or something.
Amanda Vanelderen:
And you wouldn’t even go into it until Monday. And the links wouldn’t work properly to the brief in the background. And then you’ve just told your client that you haven’t spent a week on it and that you’re about to, and then you need access to it. And you’re only just going to start it then. I’ve done that. Not for a long time, not not for years, I don’t do it anymore, but I’ve also had subs working for me who have done the same thing. And so I know it’s just a bad idea. So even if you are going to put something off until the last minute, always check the links first.
Kate Toon:
It’s funny, Joe mentioned the same thing. When you get downloads from the client that send you all this briefing stuff and you don’t look at them at all, then you open them up and you realise that they’re corrupted or they’re blank. And it’s like six hours before you were due to deliver the stuff.
Kate Toon:
And you literally can’t email them and say, “I didn’t look at it till now. Because I’ve literally just started.” So open things straight away is a wonderful tip. But I think again, that confidence comes with time, to how you approach projects. Everyone still has those last minute random panics where you are pulling it out of your bottom. And one of the things I learned in agency is that kind of reverse sell where you come up with the idea or you do the work out of nowhere, you pull it out of your bottom. And then afterwards you work out a rationale for how you got there. It’s not true, but you do it that way round? So one of my classic lines to clients when I’m running late and it’s true, is that like I’ll be really honest with you I just haven’t found the right idea yet. I haven’t gotten flow.
Kate Toon:
I’ve read through everything. But it’s just not coming out. And I could deliver you something today, but it’s not going to be what I want. So can I have a little bit more time because I feel like I’m on the cusp of coming up with a big idea. I just haven’t found it yet. And once I’ve sent that email off, I A, get given a bit more space, but also it puts a hell of a lot of pressure on me to come up with that big idea. But we’re not robots. We’re not robots. To be a successful copywriter, no matter well you get your pricing sorted you need the ability to sit at your desk with no motivation, no inspiration feeling like death and be able to pump out something. And that is a hard truth to learn. Isn’t it?
Amanda Vanelderen:
It is. It is indeed. And I think especially this year, last year, the 2020s, generally, it is hard. It is hard some days when you look around and think we’re in the middle of an apocalypse and we’re still working. It is hard. I have days when I’m just like, I want to blow all this up. What’s the point anyway, we’re all going to be like Walking Dead style nomads soon anyway. But then you pull yourself together and you get on with it.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. True. Because you have to. It’s all going to be joy and lovely. Everything’s going to sort stuff out. Don’t worry. It’s going to be fine.
Amanda Vanelderen:
But part of that, is having that community as well.
Kate Toon:
It is.
Amanda Vanelderen:
And having those people who you can share anything in there and someone will go, “Oh my God, that happened to me. And here’s what I did. And you are awesome and you are brilliant and don’t worry about it.”
Kate Toon:
It’s really everything. I mean, I use the grief as much for myself as to help other people being able to just go in. And even if you just go and say, I’m having a rubbish day and everyone else says me too. And you’ll just have a really great whinge and then you’re like, “I’ve done with that. I’ll get on.” Because it’s so lonely we are sat, you’re sat there with your little headphones on, in your home office, and I’m sat in mine. I’ll talk to the dog, maybe. I won’t see anyone until my son gets home. He’ll just grunt at me. And that’s pretty much every day. And so if I didn’t have a little gang of people to whinge to, I really don’t know what I’d do. I’d be [inaudible 00:22:47].
Amanda Vanelderen:
I think the only people that you’re talking to are either prospective clients or your clients. And that’s-
Kate Toon:
It’s dangerous. You get on the phone you’re like-
Amanda Vanelderen:
[inaudible 00:22:59].
Kate Toon:
“Hi, I love you, I’m just so glad to someone. You’re really great. I don’t mind, you can call me anytime. I’m just so lonely.” Let’s move on something far more sensible and serious. I think you strike me as a very tooly copywriter. Are you a tooly copywriter? What tools do you use by van Elderen?
Amanda Vanelderen:
Look, I love stalking my audience and my clients and getting to know everything. So I really love Reddit, Whirlpool, Product Review is another really good one. Even Glassdoor to get info on how companies are to work for. Any sites that let you peek into the audience, how they talk, what they care about, where they hang out, all of that kind of stuff. It’s brilliant. And look, I had a project with a rebranding, a big SAS platform recently, and I gave them a bunch of intel from product review that they didn’t even know existed, which translated very, very well to almost the exact kind of copy on the site. So if you can do a thorough Google search you’re ahead of some people.
Kate Toon:
Fantastic. Glassdoor you mentioned, I’ve never heard of that, what’s Glassdoor.
Amanda Vanelderen:
That’s one where people go on and rate their experience as an employee.
Kate Toon:
Okay.
Amanda Vanelderen:
So you can just get all sorts of crazy stuff. Any sort of product that you’ve got. If it’s a new product, choose a competitor and go and look at what everyone says about that. What do people like about it? What annoys them? Why do they love it? Why do they need it? What happened after they got it? So those sort of sites for me are just [inaudible 00:24:38].
Kate Toon:
I love reading reviews because I just think often clients will give you the most appalling list of a objectives and modifiers for their copy. We’re innovative, we’re passionate. And then you go and read the reviews and the way that the real humans have described it is beautiful. It’s a really great, lazy copywriter way of writing.
Amanda Vanelderen:
So good.
Kate Toon:
I love a good quote. I love just cutting pasting quotes.
Amanda Vanelderen:
And look, a lot of clients don’t have budget to do the kind of know your customer research and really full on customer research that is really valuable, but they just don’t have that budget or they don’t have the inclination. So you can actually get a lot for free from a Google search.
Kate Toon:
And also it’s often it’s not that deep. It doesn’t require a 72 page PowerPoint to analyse why Bob bought this sponge. You just go and read Bob’s review. And he said, “It’s dead spongy and it wiped up the cat wee in seconds.” Fantastic. There we go. Got whole campaign around cat wee. So you can see why I earned the big bucks. Now you said that the book was something that you wanted to do for yourself, which I fully understand. Because that’s the same with my books. I just kind of had to squeeze them out, whether they’ve helped my business is a different matter. But if the book hasn’t been your most successful marketing strategy, what has?
Amanda Vanelderen:
You know what, I don’t know if we can even consider this a marketing strategy, but most of my work is repeat and referral. So the strategy is just doing really great work and then having really excellent network.
Kate Toon:
That sounds so smart.
Amanda Vanelderen:
To help spread the word.
Kate Toon:
I’m just really, really good at my job.
Amanda Vanelderen:
I’m just awesome. And I touched on this recently talking to some of the copybeasts. For me, it’s really comes down to helping people out. I’m a bit of a… I live to give as I like to say. And I think that can apply in work, in life, in everything. So I love being an ambassador for TCCS. I help out on judging some different awards in my niche, and for some marketing industry awards. And I’ll kick someone’s butt on their pricing. And I’ll take the same approach with my clients, I think as well. I have a lot of clients where we have a really good personal relationship that we’ve built up because I’m willing to let them vent to me for half an hour because they’re having a tough time, just like everyone else is. And so we build that relationship up and it’s trust, I think.
Kate Toon:
It is. And I do notice that about you. I do wonder how you find the time sometimes, but again, people say that of me. How do you answer all the comments on Facebook? And you just do find the time. And it may not be the most erudite answer that I give, but it’s very important to me, but you are a very kind of giving person. And I think, again, that also comes with time and confidence, because at first you can be loath to give clients that extra time to listen to them complain or whatever, because you’re like, “Oh God, I’m wasting money. And I only budgeted for an hour.” And it’s having that confidence to know when you can and when you shouldn’t as well. It’s a tricky one, really tricky one.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Look and it’s been an interesting thing to observe in the last couple of years that so many Zoom meetings and video conferencing and all the rest of it, and people have been hurting. People have been struggling and there’s lots of job changes going on as well through, I’m sure a lot of the brands that we all work with. And sometimes the people on the other end that are your client that you need to have a professional relationship aren’t okay. And you’ve got to try and find that right approach, I guess, to kind of be there without crossing the line. And I always fall back on, look, what can I do to take some stress off you? I’m here to take that away from you. What can I take off your plate? I’m not here to make your life harder. Just that kind of reassurance, I guess.
Kate Toon:
Being human. I mean, even though you’re doing B2B, there’s still humans at the end of it. And just, you can hear it in people’s voices, they’re struggling, whatever. And if you create that kind of relationship of trust, then it pays you back when things aren’t going so well for you. Because obviously we all have challenges as well. And you mentioned earlier that you had a big health challenge and like everybody, you’ve struggled with work life balance. You’ve struggled with self doubt. What are some tips around there? What did you learn from that big period of being very poorly and then coming back? How has it changed your business?
Amanda Vanelderen:
It changed everything. Well, it changed my brain, whether I liked it or not. But some there’s some real positives in that. Well, you’ve got to look after yourself. That’s all I can say. And I am a massive hypocrite, but you really have to look after yourself. And treat yourself like you’d treat anyone that was working for you. Why are you any different? Why can you sit there and work for 13 hours a day? You don’t have to do that. Burnout is real. And most copywriters go through it because by virtue of the fact that we’re doing, whether it’s straight up boring whatever, it’s the creative juices that can really leave you feeling depleted when you use too much of them up. You’ve got to look after yourself. Look, I’ve got a physio appointment today and acupuncture appointment on Wednesday because I’m falling to bits. It’s okay to have a day where you want to blow it all up and run away.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. And that’s great to hear that you’ve got those appointments because 2, 3 years ago, Amanda Vanelderen would not have had those appointments.
Amanda Vanelderen:
No.
Kate Toon:
I remember having a discussion in, we’ve got a side group to the Clever Copywriting Group, which is all about health and wellness. But I remember having this discussion about one of the members saying, “In the morning, what I do is I actually go to the gym before I start work.” And I was like, who does that? That’s like… What? You’ve lost and hour and a half.
Amanda Vanelderen:
That’s like two billable hours.
Kate Toon:
Exactly. I was so focused on the money. The breadwinner thing comes back again. The pressure. And I didn’t realise that investing that hour in the gym was actually going to make me more time throughout the day, make me better, blah, blah, blah. I’ve changed that. Took me a long time. And unfortunately I think I banged the, not the hustle drum, because I’m not really a hustler, but I’m a work hard person. You got to work really, really hard, work hard. And yet not so much the work smart or work healthy thing.
Kate Toon:
So I’m glad that we both had that bit of a realisation because I’m on the same path as well. Now we’ve got all different types of copywriters listening to this podcast. Fantastic. It’s so exciting. But if you were to talk to… I’m going to ask for a tip, not for a newbie, but somebody who’s at where you are, like a fellow copywriter who’s 5, 6, 7 years in. The shininess is worn off. The reality has hit home, but this is your life. This is how you’re going to make money for the foreseeable future. This is your job. What is a tip for somebody who’s in that position?
Amanda Vanelderen:
Oh, one word, rhymes with niche. You must niche. I think a lot of copywriters start out just like me doing anything and everything. Because doing anything creative is always sort of been given this idea of that’s a privilege. It’s not a job where you can complain about how much you’re being paid per hour. You should just do it.
Kate Toon:
Like someone’s willing to pay me to write. So I should just be grateful. That’s the attitude, isn’t it. I’m so grateful this client has contacted me. And it’s so…
Amanda Vanelderen:
It just so was, and I think that, sorry, I’ve just lost my train.
Kate Toon:
So niche or eat quiche.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Niche. Rhymes with quiche. I think everyone starts off doing everything. And then over time, I think you can find you don’t have to call it a niche. If you don’t want to, you can call it a special.
Kate Toon:
I love that. You said that in a masterclass the other day, and it’s such a small thing. You don’t have to call it niche. You can call it specialty. Because it takes away all that worry about, well, if I niche too much, I won’t be able to do this kind of work. No, no I do everything. I can do anything, but I’m extra good at this. It’s different.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Shout out to original copy based Angela Denly. Who I just noticed yesterday was the lovely little profile on her in a group. And she does a really good job of saying I’m a fact based copywriter. And she works in similar space to me in B2B, but she also puts… And she has a sweet spot for writing delicious food copy or something like that. So I’m like, so you can write my B2B stuff, but “Hey, you’re also a food copywriter.”
Amanda Vanelderen:
I don’t have any less respect for Ange because she dares to say that she has a specialty in something. I think the more that you can do that and I think it is a natural progression as well. You kind of find your way there over the phases of your business developing. And you find a way to something that whether… We’ve talked about this a lot, but you can niche by industry, you can niche by tone of voice. You can niche by format. You can niche by results. You can have intersectional niches, lots of different things. And by its nature a niche is narrow but deep.
Kate Toon:
Yeah.
Amanda Vanelderen:
And for me, saying B2B that’s still a very broad church, but then within that, I specialise in annual reports, case studies and something else, which has slipped my mind completely.
Kate Toon:
I just had a shudder of revulsion at the list of things that you specialise in. When I come back to being a full-time copywrite, I’m actually going to niche in quiche. That’s going to be my… I’m only going to write copy about quiches.
Amanda Vanelderen:
But can you imagine though. There you have an audience right there. There’s at least three quiche shops in the world. Isn’t there?
Kate Toon:
There is. And I will be the go to person. That’ll be [inaudible 00:34:51].
Amanda Vanelderen:
That’s what you want to be. That’s exactly what you want to be. So I know people kind of feel as though nicheing cuts off opportunities. I think reframing that into the opportunities that it will open up for you and the way that it makes promoting yourself, your profile, everything easier. It’s so worth it.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. We bang on about this a lot in the Clever Copywriting School, about how once you do pick that specialty, everything becomes easier. Your processes, your pricing, your client attraction, your onboarding, your marketing, everything becomes easier. And I don’t think you cut off opportunities. I think you cut off the wrong opportunities. Because not every opportunity is an opportunity. It’s daft rabbit hole masquerading as an opportunity. We’re going to finish up with something random, she’s such a fashionista.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Stop.
Kate Toon:
I was going to ask you what your favourite item of clothing is, but what do you wear as a copywriter? Do you mostly write naked?
Amanda Vanelderen:
Mostly, but if I have to put clothes on to move from the house to my office, which is a separate little building. look today is Lion King-
Kate Toon:
Today is a sparkly, zip up jumpsuit.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Today’s Lion King pyjamas.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. Like it.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Panda printed Ugg boots and a shirt that I put onto Zoom meetings to make me look professional.
Kate Toon:
The shirt looks very B2B. You’ve got a [inaudible 00:36:14]-
Amanda Vanelderen:
Thank you.
Kate Toon:
You know if people say, it’s like party at the back and business at the front. You’re like business business on the boobs and party on the bottom. Party on the bottom. That sounds awful. She’s not a party on the bottom. Or maybe you are. I’ve got to stop. Amanda Vanelderen, it’s always lovely to talk to you. I noticed that you’ve just done a little bit of a sexy rebrand. Where can everyone go and look at it and feel jealous about your new website?
Amanda Vanelderen:
Well, I work with content for the first time had a website built by someone who’s not me. And you can find us workword.com.AU.
Kate Toon:
Fantastic. We’ll check you out there. Thank you very much for coming on the show today.
Amanda Vanelderen:
Thank you. Pleasure.
