“If you’re a newbie copywriter, don’t bother setting up a website,
don’t bother getting business cards, don’t bother with a domain name just yet, just
subcontract as much as possible.”
Sarah Spence
What are your copywriting ambitions?
Do you dream of running an agency?
Working with big brand clients, with lush, juicy budgets?
Being able to hire your dream time of bright minds?
Today’s guest Sarah Spence has done it all. While making two humans and dealing with a clutch of mental health challenges.
She’s an amazingly smart cookie who’s scaled a remote team and taken on the kinds of projects that would keep me up at night/
And she’s not scared to admit that sometimes they keep her up at night too.
Toon in to find out how Sarah realise the world would wait for her to find her copywriting feet, and how when she did, she began sprinting to success.
Tune in to learn:
- Sarah’s copywriting journey
- Her biggest win and worst fail
- Her favourite copywriting tool
- How she manages her team
- Her view on content marketing: Pillars Clusters Waterfalls
- How she deals with imposter syndrome and self doubt
- Her tips for newbie copywriters
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About Sarah Spence
Sarah started her copywriting business after leaving the corporate marketing world to have a baby.
After working as a solo copywriter for a while, she started to scale with many wonderful copybeasts from TCCS working with her as subcontractors.
Over the past 7 years, with a break in the middle for another baby, she’s grown her business and is now managing a team of anywhere from 10-25 writers, copy editors and project managers at any one time.
The team’s latest clients include Westpac, Woolworths and Spotlight Retail Group.
Fun fact: Sarah loves cross-stitching.
Connect with Sarah Spence
Useful Resources
Transcript
Kate Toon:
Hello. My name is Kate Toon and I’m the head of Copy Beast at The Clever Copywriting School, an online community and teaching hub for all things related to copywriting. Today, I’m talking to Sarah Spence. Hello, Sarah Spence.
Sarah Spence:
Hello.
Kate Toon:
Such a lovely asinine… What is it? Not asinine. What is it when you repeat S’s?
Sarah Spence:
I don’t know.
Kate Toon:
I think it’s sibilance. I don’t know. God, we’re supposed to be copywriters.
Sarah Spence:
Yeah, should we be copywriters?
Kate Toon:
We’ll rerecord this bit later and there’ll be a bit where I go, assonance, over the top really badly edited in. Let’s talk about who you are. Sarah started her copywriting business after leaving the corporate marketing world to have a baby after working as a solo copywriter. For a while, she started to scale with many wonderful Copy Beasts from The Clever Copywriting School. Hooray. Working with her as subcontractors over the past seven years with a break in the middle for another baby. She’s grown her business and is now managing a team of anywhere from 10 to 25 writers, oh my God, shudder, copy editors, project managers at any one time.
Kate Toon:
The team’s latest clients include Westpac, Woolworth’s, Spotlight Retail Group and many, many more. Fun fact, Sarah loves cross stitching. Honestly, after all that cross stitching seems a little bit irrelevant. Boom. It’s pretty impressive, you wheeled out those big brand names, didn’t you?
Sarah Spence:
Yep.
Kate Toon:
Yeah.
Sarah Spence:
It’s been a ride.
Kate Toon:
It’s been a ride. Well, we’re going to talk about that ride today. Sarah was the third person to join the Clever Copywriting School. You see, there’s a bit of a theme to these podcasts. She is also our ambassador in the group and talks about this topic of scaling a fair bit, because, I guess, a theme that’s coming out in the first three episodes already is there’s so many different ways to be a copywriter. It’s definitely not what I thought it would be. I thought I’d be in a cafe with a beret, writing… I don’t know what I thought I’d be writing. I did have a brief period in a cafe, it’s really hard writing in a cafe. Isn’t it?
Sarah Spence:
It is, very.
Kate Toon:
It’s not fun at all. I need a mouse and I’ve got one of those laptops now that doesn’t have a hole, it’s got no holes, so I can’t have a mouse. I’m bubbling. Let’s go back a few years to when you were a mid child starting your copywriting journey.
Sarah Spence:
Yep.
Kate Toon:
What did you do before you became a copywriter? What was this corporate job that you have?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. Well, is there a traditional path? I don’t know to copywriting, but I’ve definitely not taken one. I have done many, many different things, which I think has stood me in good stead for what I’m doing now. But, first off, I kicked off with a receptionist job at a loyalty marketing agency. I got really bored at UNI doing my undergrad, and decided to start working full-time and studying part-time, which I could do because I was 18. Then I started working for Orange and 3 mobile, which are two brands that aren’t here anymore, but we’re really big here for a while. 3 mobile were the first mobile phone company to bring out cat plans, which is what we all know as our mobile plans now are fixed monthly rate with…
Kate Toon:
Just realise I’ve muted myself. Does Orange not exist anymore?
Sarah Spence:
Not here in Australia. No, it does in the UK and 3 mobile and it’s still in France, but not here.
Kate Toon:
Oh my goodness. I didn’t even notice. There you go. Hurry on. Sorry.
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. I worked there, initially, as a visual merchandiser, so I used to go around to all the shops and make sure the phones were looking pretty, and everything was clean, and did all the nice displays. Then I worked, my way up into a relationship management role. Again, I used to drive all over Sydney, all over New South Wales in the end, going into the different phone stores. So, some of them were stores that sold many different brands, not just Three and Orange. Some of them were our own stores. I was basically the person from head office who would come and have a chat and try and build the relationship and make sure everything looked nice, and all of that stuff. It was a super fun company to work for because it was really young and there was an amazing culture, and some of my best friends are still from my time there, so that was really cool.
Sarah Spence:
Then I had a pretty big burnout and decided I needed to go and do a bit of overseas experience time. So, I headed off over there. I started freelancing. That was probably my first proper copywriting job, freelancing for an agency in Edinburgh back in the very early days of SEO, lots of articles, keyword stuffing, Backlink Central, but I got to do it for brands like British Airways and Hilton International, and I got to write about all these amazing cities that people could go to, and lots of fun stuff. During that time, I also worked as a nanny in the French house for a bit. I worked for a big financial firm in the UK doing a new report and shareholder communications. I also worked as the guest relations manager at a five star hotel over there, and came home and started working at Citibank, which is where I was for four years prior to having my first child. I was initially a copywriter there and then worked my way up into a senior marketing role.
Kate Toon:
Good grief. It’s varied, but I sense a theme and maybe a theme for the episode that’s going to pop out. Because what the words that kept on coming up again and again were relationship management. You’ve had a lot of roles where you’ve been face-to-face with your customers, whether they’re actually the legit customers or one step away where you’re dealing in a hotel, you’re dealing with customers all the time, you’re going around to the different stores, talking to store managers. There’s a lot of relation to this little ship stuff there and knowing your business and knowing the role you play now, I think that served you super well, super, super well in terms of now what you’re doing. We’ll come onto that. When did you start your proper copywriting? When you left Citibank, how long ago was that?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. So that’s seven and a half years ago. It’s the same age as my eldest. I basically didn’t want to go back to full-time corporate work, and so I thought, “Oh, I’ll do some copywriting.” I’ve always been the person drawn upon to help out with the CEO’s speech or to proofread the tender document or whatever. So I was like, “I can do this.” I’d done freelance copywriting before when I was in the UK and France, so I was like, “Oh, I’ll just give this a go.” We really needed money. It just kind of let’s just try. I joined TCCS, I did your first ever recipe for SEO Success Course.
Kate Toon:
You did? You were the first 20. I looked in the spreadsheet the other day and saw your name and I was like, “God, thank you for having faith in me back then.”
Sarah Spence:
Oh, not at all. It was a great course, then it’s a great course now. I felt like I needed something in order to validate what I do or what I did. I did those courses and that’s really when I started the business.
Kate Toon:
Let’s talk about those earlier years to begin with. Obviously, you had Ellie, she was very young, did you do the whole brand and great website? Did you go and get your business cards and spend a thousand dollars at kikki.K? Did you just model along?
Sarah Spence:
I modelled. I don’t think I had an actual website probably until you’d said to me, maybe 50 times, “You need to get a website. It doesn’t matter if it’s just one page, but put a website up.” My first website, I built myself in WordPress without really knowing what I was doing, and I wrote a poem about An Ode to Coffee that was on there and it was hilarious, but it was just to be a business card and someone Googled my name and hopefully I’d come up, etc. But no, I didn’t go in to get the branding thing done. You were banging on the money, actually. I just tried to build relationships with people, you and I built a beautiful relationship. I built relationships with people who I’d worked with previously. I didn’t really put myself even out there that much, I just said yes to any opportunity I could find, and it went from there.
Kate Toon:
I like that. I think that’s a common theme for the copywriters who I found have stuck around that maybe those early years were a bit messy, a bit muddy, but they’re actually really important. I think often if you get too set into like, “This is my brand name. I’m going to build my website and get my documentation ready and choose the perfect project management software.” But it is procrastination. That a lot of the learning comes from actually doing the work gravely for not enough money. For me, it was about three years in when I kind of, “Maybe I’m now ready to do this properly. Now, this is really a thing.” I know you had a bit of a pivot, well, or a moment where you’d had Ellie, I think it was about three or four years and you were like, “I want to make another human.” Can you talk to us about that a little bit?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. We wanted to have another human. Ellie had been a bit of a challenging human to begin with, but lovely baby who just didn’t like to sleep. We were ready though to go second time around. The business had grown to the point where I wasn’t really going to be able to handle it just on my own, but I also just couldn’t face trying to scale it or whatever. We felt pregnant with our second, and I was so petrified that all the work I’d done was just going to fall away. That was it. I’d had my chance. I was going to have to go out to corporate work, all of them. You very correctly said to me one day, “The world will wait for Sarah Spence. Just go away…
Kate Toon:
Remember that chat. We were in a pub in Bangalore. Wasn’t called Bangalore then.
Sarah Spence:
No.
Kate Toon:
We were stood at the bar and I remember saying that. I was saying it myself as well. Well, I put a lot of pressure on myself in those early years. We couldn’t have a second human, which is a big sorrow for us, but for me anyway, not so much of my husband who didn’t care. But it’s a line I almost need to say to myself on a daily basis because you did take a break, you came back, I think, better than before. It was like Sarah Spence 2.0. It didn’t make any difference whatsoever, really.
Sarah Spence:
No, it didn’t at all. You told me, “Just go do the growing a human thing.” In the end, I actually really needed to, I had a really physically terrible second pregnancy and I couldn’t work for most of it, and so, I had to stop. I just had to accept that, which was really difficult for me. I don’t like not being able to do anything I set my mind to. Then I did have the baby, her name is Lotti and she’s four and a half now. She was my little dream baby, she liked to sleep. Then we did a move as well, move up to Central Coast on New South Wales near you. That wasn’t the reason.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. About four of the members of the community moved within five miles of where I live, and it was quite cool. So, no, I love that you’re up here now.
Sarah Spence:
Talking to you. So, we did that. Actually, the thing that got me back into it was that again, we needed money, and so, I took a part-time gig at a very niche marketing agency nearby. I know a lot of new copywriters face that challenge, “Should I take on some regular part-time work or a regular client that maybe doesn’t pay me quite as well, but at least its regular income,” and all of that stuff. That’s what these guys were for me, but also voided it switched my post mom confidence on, because I think when I’ve been freelancing first time around because Ellie didn’t sleep so well, I was always afraid of like, “Oh, if I have a really terrible night, how am I going to be able to show up?”
Sarah Spence:
I’m working from home, I’m just going to want to nap. How is that going to work? Because it was a job, I just had to show up, and I proved to myself in that process that I could show up. I think that was a really big change for me be cause I was like, “Oh, so this whole mom thing actually doesn’t define me when it comes to my career, and actually I can do both.” So, I was with them for a few months. Then, again, stuff just started growing to the point where I was like, “Okay, if I’m going to do this properly, it’s now or never.” That was really about two and a half years ago now.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. I think a couple of interesting points you’ve raised there, the post mom fog and coming out of that because even if you’re away from your job for a bit, you feel like things have moved on or you [inaudible 00:12:54]
Sarah Spence:
Think you’re not a mom.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, exactly. You’ve had a period of illness or whatever it may be, and you feel stupider for some reason. You feel like your brain has got squishier and it needs to sharpen up again. But also I’m really interested and pleased that you mentioned that you took a part-time role. We talked on the episode with Angela Pickett about how in the earlier she got a retainer and that really, really helped her financially, mentally process structure that a lot of people are like, “Well, I’m going to be a failure if I take a job.” Even if it’s not a job related to copy, if you have to work three days a week at something else and you start your copy route and business on the other couple of days, it’s absolutely fine. There are ebbs and flows, there’s a season a lifetime, all that kind of stuff.
Kate Toon:
I love that you got so much out of that. But then, I think, you’re right. It does come a point where you’re like, “Am I doing this?” For some people at that point doesn’t come and they’re perfectly happy and that’s fine too. But for you, you’ve always had this kind of burning ambition. I saw it. I saw it. I think it’s the lipstick. But you always wanted to make something I think, and so, you took the plunge, you gave up that job and content copywriting was born.
Sarah Spence:
Yep.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. So, tell us about that. Tell us about those early days of that.
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. This was, I guess, content copywriting 2.0, really. But this was the point at which I went, “Okay, I’m not going to have a safety net,” and I kept moaning to my husband like, “Oh, but what if I don’t earn any money?” That, of course, isn’t what happened. It just grew and grew. That was a point at which then I finally invested in a brand because I also had enough money to be able to do that. Those early years and even to this day, actually, anything new, maybe I should, but I don’t know it hasn’t been necessary, but I don’t do it unless I’m required to. I haven’t sat there spending lots of time trying to map out a social media strategy or even look at new services we could add to the business. A client has just asked us, “Hey, can you do this?” Then I’ve gone and explored it and gone, “Yes, we can.”
Sarah Spence:
So, I have always waited for someone to ask me to do something and then I figure out how I’m going to do it. That’s really where the growth has come from is that we’ve ended up having, again, drawing on my network and referrals from other people, and things like that. A lot of subcontracting as well. I’ve learned a lot around process. I’ve learned a lot around what makes good content. I’ve added to my own knowledge, and then the team’s knowledge around some of the data stuff, the SEO stuff, the audience research stuff, strategy stuff, and then combine that. Also, figured out what these bigger clients especially are needing and wanting. They’re really wanting a team they can just trust to get stuff done. That’s the fundamental and someone they can have a nice chat to, and they’re not just treated like a number by a big media or agency.
Kate Toon:
Someone they can have a relationship with.
Sarah Spence:
Someone they can have a relationship.
Kate Toon:
Relationships I think are important then. Full transparency here, I have referred a fair bit of work to you over the years because I stopped being a copywriter about three, four years ago. I wanted to refer people onto someone good, and so, because of my prominence in the search results, I do get some big brands coming through to me, pass them through to you. Now, why you? Why did I pick you? Again, you worked having a relationship with me. I meet hundreds and hundreds of copywriters, but I think we got on, but it’s the relationship. I actually have to be perfectly honest and very, very rude. I haven’t read your coffee poem and I’ve never read any of your copy. So, I don’t actually know if you’re a good copywriter, but I trusted that you were a good person and that you were studying and that you were putting the effort in and you sounded like you know what you’re doing.
Kate Toon:
This is what I mean, though. It’s so often not about the copy, it’s about the person and the relationship. I think that’s been fundamental for you throughout your business. I want to talk now, it’s your win, but I actually… Because the win is all amazing and submitted for Australian Marketing Institute Award. We’ll talk about that in a minute. But for me, from the outside in the real win seems to be the fact that you’ve scaled and built a team which most people struggle with. Can we talk about that part of the win first?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah, sure. Yes, absolutely. The win is we have actually as of today, I think I’ve just hired our 12th in-house employee, which just blows my mind and I am so grateful to the entire team. Then we work with a beautiful group of anywhere between 15 to 25, 30 writers and editors subcontracting to us at any given time. We’ve got 17 clients at the moment. So, some of them are very big and we’re able to manage that because the team just loves what they do. I actually feel incredibly privileged that four of the people in our team have actually shut down their own successful businesses in order to come and work with us, partially because they’re overrun their own business. Also, because they really liked the idea of what we’re doing. Those, the fundamentals of what makes great content are able to be realised in this scaled environment because we set up the processes to begin with.
Sarah Spence:
So, we often talk to our clients about, “There’s nothing that goes out our door unless three or four brains have been across it.” That is ultimately like I just don’t know how people can create great content at scale, as in a lot of volume of content without there being that kind of group effort.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, I agree. Most agencies, you are partnered up with a designer or another creative person, and I think any copywriter can, as you said 10 or so blog posts, but going on after that, you will get burnt out. There is only so much one brain can come up with and either you need to hire subcontractors or proofreaders or editors to get involved. I love that you mentioned that some people have closed down their business to come and work with you because they hate having their own business, and a lot of people do. But also, for the culture and for the creative opportunity and to work on these big brands because it’s great to work on these big brands with enough money and space to be able to come up with creative ideas. It’s a different proposal completely than being just little freelance, copywriter at home doing job after job, it’s a different proposal. But I guess, what would you like running a big business? Well, you’re doing it.
Sarah Spence:
I’m doing it.
Kate Toon:
Whether you like it or not. So, these people have left to have that experience. You probably now do a lot less actual writing, you do a lot more strategy, a lot more relationship stuff. How does that sit with you? Is this how you thought it would end up?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah, that’s a really interesting question. What I would also say is that for those copywriters starting out and the freelance copywriters just at home, that’s what I was not that long ago. So, if this is something that you’re dreaming of, it’s definitely achievable. It’s hard, it’s interesting, and it’s engaging, but it’s possible because that’s exactly the situation I was in. Is this how I thought it would turn out? I don’t know. I invested in myself quite a lot at the beginning of last year in terms of coaching and just trying to close some of the gaps that I had as a business leader. One of those was around coaching. Well, what’s the vision? What’s the purpose? What are the business values? Etc.
Sarah Spence:
When I went through that post process with my amazing coach, Ami Summers at Craft Coaching and Development, who a lot of you will know, I was thinking, “This is just such wankery. Who’s going to care about these values?” Just because they matter to me, why would they matter to someone else? The number of times that the team, we go back to those values and that purpose, and we use that to define our behaviours and to celebrate our wins and things just blows my mind. So, no, this isn’t what I thought it would be, but I do mostly love it. It’s so exciting to get to work on some of this big stuff. With the project for a major bank, you mentioned there earlier, we have had the opportunity to completely define from scratch how they communicate internally, and we’ve been the ones to do that for them. That’s not just writing a blog post that has been a whole other level, we now write all of their content for that platform.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, getting into that ground level. It’s funny because there’s different ways to scale as well. So you’ve scaled to the point where you are managing the business, managing the team, you’ve got a manager as well, who helps with that. I would say to a degree, you’ve taken yourself out of the work of doing the writing, necessarily. I have done the exact opposite. So, I’ve hired everybody to do all of that bit so that all I have to do is the writing and the creative side. So, there’s different ways to scale that. I think it’s really interesting and the opportunities you’ve had. It’s funny what lights you up. You can’t see Sarah because this is a podcast, but when she’s talking about working with the bank, she come up with her eyes all flashy and she’s grinning and she’s excited. Different things are going to light you up, and knowing what they are.
Kate Toon:
I’m really interested in what you said about the values. I’ve never worked with a coach. I probably should have done. Having a team, you have very much have to embody those values yourself because, yes, you can keep referring back to the brand guidelines and talking to them, but you need to live those values in everything that you do. That can be quite challenging as well as a leader to turn up each day and be a leader. Is that challenge for you?
Sarah Spence:
No, I guess because they’re relatively personally aligned. Our values are quality, trust, confidence, and authenticity. Actually the easiest value of that for me personally to live each day is the authenticity. I don’t believe that I need to come to work and be all bouncy and like, “Oh, let’s go. We’re doing such a great job.” I bring my whole self or we have a really super open door policy about talking about all of our mental health issues. We’ve all got beautifully tricky brains. We really celebrate neurodiversity. Myself, I had a recent ADHD diagnosis at the [inaudible 00:23:32]
Kate Toon:
My gosh, everyone’s getting them these days.
Sarah Spence:
I know. I know they’re like a bus pass. That was so great. It’s really established the why about why my brain is and why I have a bit of this superpower, and also can be a bit too much sometimes to some people, but that authenticity bringing that in. We do a little update every morning on a few different things in the team chat on Slack. This morning, the first one is, “Today, I’m feeling” and I wrote good, but I’m aware that I’m all a bit jittery and a bit anxious because I’ve got this podcast chat today and it’s [inaudible 00:24:11]
Kate Toon:
So terrifying. I know. I love that. I’m the same on my Slack. Generally, I share a lot of memes, but I do share my highs and lows as well. I think most of my team know that I’m as mad as a balloon, and that’s fine. We all are to some degree. Let’s talk about your win. Then on the flip, I want to talk about your fail. So, what’s your biggest copywrite career win?
Sarah Spence:
So, the biggest one will hopefully being registered at least as a finalist for an AMI, Australian Marketing Institute Award. Later this year, we have just submitted for one that we think is pretty amazing. So, in the last year for the Health-E Commerce brand Healthy Life, we’ve created over 350 articles, we did all the strategy for that as well. The results are amazing. This is also just so wonderful. In summary, the results are that any visitors to the site who interacts with even one of our articles, they are more likely to purchase, more likely to spend longer on the site, more likely to return more often, and also spend more than those who don’t. So, that’s really just encapsulates the power of great content when it’s…
Kate Toon:
It does. It’s content. It’s not sales copywriting, it’s not conversion copywriting, it’s content. We do a whole other episode on that. Hey, maybe we will. But I also love that you are entering an award because I was very empty awards for a long time. But they’re important for a bit of a milestone for you to go through the process of entering them because they’re hard and they make you really look at what you’ve done and why it’s awesome. They do create recognition in the marketplace, people look for awards. As a team to celebrate that together, it’s amazing. So, I’m really glad that you’re doing that. Okay. It all sounds a bit too perfect, Sarah Spence.
Sarah Spence:
It’s not.
Kate Toon:
Come on. Tell us your worst fail. Tell us something embarrassing and awful that you’ve done.
Sarah Spence:
Okay. So, look, there’s been plenty of fails, and there are fails on almost a weekly basis. But I think the biggest one that still up until relatively recently saying yes to people who aren’t our ideal clients. I define our ideal client as someone who doesn’t have their own money to spend, then they have a budget. It’s also about their relationship with the money that they’re spending with you. So, it’s not just necessarily a big brand, but it’s like, “Okay, I’m going to invest X amount into content.” Therefore they have a different relationship with that money. So the value exchange is just a far easier conversation. So, there’s just so many instances where I’ve said yes, because I’ve been excited to work with them or whatever it happened to be, and the stress and the sleepless nights that come from that are just really atrocious. So, that’s definitely been my fail, and I was still doing it up until relatively recently. Also, I can’t guarantee that I won’t do it again in the future.
Kate Toon:
Well, this is it. We all get bamboozled and a bit story eyed by the big brands. I’ve taken many a job on literally thinking about the testimonial I’m going to get at the end, and the fact that I’m going to be able to put their logo on my homepage, and it’s been a living hell. So I think big brands are amazing. You’ve got some great ones on your list, but you’re totally right, it still has to work for you and your business and your model, and the relationship needs to be good. Because also you can have a great brand with the money and the right attitude with a great strategy, but the client that you’re working with is a shit given and the person that you’re going to have to talk to for months and months and months. So, that feels off as well. It can be hard to [inaudible 00:27:44]
Sarah Spence:
As we say, we don’t like to work with anyone who has BDE otherwise known as big dick energy.
Kate Toon:
Oh, I like that. Willy-waving. I like that.
Sarah Spence:
Yes. It’s unfortunately that kind of energy because they’re overcompensating for something that’s not quite so big, but that’s not our ideal client.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. Can we have big labia energy? Is that a thing?
Sarah Spence:
No, because it’s a negative thing. So big labia energy is positive.
Kate Toon:
What’s wrong with labias?
Sarah Spence:
No, no, that would be a positive thing.
Kate Toon:
Okay, cool.
Sarah Spence:
Big energy is not a positive thing.
Kate Toon:
Okay. I’m glad that we managed to talk about labias on the podcast. That’s a milestone. So, we’re going to get into some practical stuff now. What is one of your favourite copywrite tools?
Sarah Spence:
Hands down Asana.
Kate Toon:
I love Asana.
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. We actually invested, this sounds like a lot and it is, but we invested $25,000 into customised Asana setup for our process. So, now everything is automated and it just makes managing multiple big projects really easy.
Kate Toon:
That’s amazing. I don’t like spending money. So I think I invested about $5. But I use Asana in combination with Slack, I think it’s the most beautiful Batman and Robin combination in the world. So, especially if you are managing multiple projects and multiple team players, I find Slack’s really great for managing the team in terms of conversations and to-do lists, and those group chats. We have a DAF channel, which is just like stupid memes and we have a general channel where we share wins and we have individual channels as well. It’s fantastic, and then Asana for projects. Love that.
Kate Toon:
Now, you come across obviously very confident, as I said, I think it’s 98% the lipstick. Its wonderful thing. But you’ve obviously had moments of self doubt and you are very open about that. I’m always so grateful when you’re having the past posted in the Clever Copywriting community about your struggles and Matt does it too, and Angela, everyone does. I love it. Because we need to see this, we need to see the reality behind the wonderful brand. So, how do you deal with yourself there? What have you learned along the way?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah, I’ve learned a lot of things. I have always struggled with really terrible impostor syndrome. I didn’t know it was that until the last few years when that term came out. Especially in the early years, I always thought I was going to be caught out as a fraud for some reason, and I think that really comes down to the subjectivity of copywriting and you put your heart and soul into a piece and then some idiot client thinks, “No that’s not good enough. Let me get my wife to check that,” or whatever. We’ve all had that experience. So what really helped me with that though, is that I started to really lean into the data side of stuff and use things like SEMrush and other tools. Even then analytics and search consult to look at the results and go, “Look, objectively, I can prove that this is worth doing. Objectively, look at this data, this is an article that’s worth writing.”
Sarah Spence:
It’s not me saying, for instance, we should write an article about how much kifer you should give your dog. There’s a lot of people searching for that and it’s got low competition, so let’s do that. Then boom, look at the results. So, that data side of things has really helped with my confidence because then when I’m going out, they’re asking brands to spend big money with us. I feel confident in that because I’ve got hard data to back it up.
Kate Toon:
I love that. Not just the data to do the work, but one of the things that I notice that you do that many copywriters don’t do is you close the loop, so you get the results. You just mentioned, these articles on Healthline or whatever are proving that they work, so closing that loop with results. I think a lot of copywriters are intimidated by that. They don’t want to have any guarantees, not should they about necessarily SEO, but they don’t want to offer any kind of guarantees. I’ll write it, but I’m not claiming it’s going to do anything. It’s like, no, no, no. You need to be able to say that this article is going to improve the time on site, that you’re going to make people not just read one page but two, that this article’s going to lead them through to product. You need to have that. For the amount kinds of money that you are demanding for the strategies you’re doing, that data, I think is great. But I love that you’re using data to overcome impostor syndrome, and that’s really powerful.
Sarah Spence:
Yeah, for sure.
Kate Toon:
Fantastic. So, we’ve talked about the scale of this and it’s happened quite quickly. In the last couple of years, you’ve gone from just you to hiring multiple people, full-time people, not just subcontractors, it’s actual real members of staff. I’m sure that’s been stressful. Have you kept your mental health on track? How have you balanced all of that?
Sarah Spence:
At times better than others, but generally I’ve had, as you mentioned, a long relationship with mental illness, I’ve got generalised anxiety disorder, panic disorder and ADHD, which isn’t technically mental illness. But, anyway. I know what I need to do. I’ve been seeing the same psychologist since I was 21. I was really lucky to the first psychologist I saw to form a good relationship with. I know all the things I need to do, I need to meditate, I need to do exercise, I need to eat well, avoid alcohol, avoid too much caffeine, etc. I need to get enough sleep, that doesn’t always happen. There’s no secret sauce to that, I just know I need to do that. But, mostly, what I do is just try and give myself a lot of acceptance. We’re going through another big period of growth right now, it hasn’t really stopped, actually, to be fair, in the last two and a half years, this massive period of growth.
Sarah Spence:
I just try and sit there and some acceptance of the fact that at night it takes me ages to wind down because I’ve had a really busy day. I don’t get to see my kidlets as much as maybe I’d like to, but I know that I’m investing this time now in order to give us all a better future, and that acceptance is a big part of it. Then the other part is that I medicate because I spent six years without medication while I had my babies, and it was incredibly hard. Once I went back on medication, I was like, “Oh, this is what my brain’s meant to feel like. Okay, that’s good.” So, that’s been a big part of it as well for me.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. Thank you for being so open about that. I think most of us know what we should do, but doing it is incredibly hard. Also, some of our brains just don’t pump out the right amount of goo that they need to, and there’s no harm in taking medication. I too have taken that over the years, and it does the trick. If that’s what works, that’s what works.
Sarah Spence:
If diabetics need insulin [inaudible 00:34:29]
Kate Toon:
Exactly. The stigma about taking antidepressants and anti-anxiety is just so ridiculous. It’s like, everything else is fine, got a heart disease, got a fatty liver, medical treatment is fine, but anything wrong with your brain, oh no, it is a weak human. So I’m really glad that we’ve talked about that. Then I’m now thinking, “God, why you’re very driven.” I’ve said this to you before. You’re very driven. I guess what I’ve said to you before is that I can’t imagine doing what you do. I did it, I did it in an agency and I ran a big team, and now I guess I have a big team, but I don’t feel like as I’m as driven as you are. Maybe I am, maybe I don’t know. What drives you? What drives you to do all this? We’re just talking about the fact that you’ve just managed to pretty much get a house in your dream location, well, on the way to being super financially secure, but is that what really drives you, money? What does drive you?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. That sounds, I mean…
Kate Toon:
It doesn’t sound anything.
Sarah Spence:
Yeah, money drives me, absolutely. It’s not actually even just money for me, there’s a part of it that’s money for our future and our family, etc., but it’s not like, “Oh, I want to build this up and sell it and be retired by 45.” I don’t have any of that kind of grand job. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but the money stuff and feeling secure, I had quite a few periods, particularly, in my 20s where I was very financially unstable, and I think they scared me so much. There was a period of about four months where I couldn’t afford toiletries, and so, I didn’t actually use toothpaste, I didn’t use shampoo and conditioner. It was very difficult. I think that that rocked me to the point where I’m just like, “Okay, I need to get stable with finances.” Wasn’t really aware of this, but what really drives me now is this ability I’ve now built, now with all of their help too, but to be able to employ and fund the lifestyles of these incredibly intelligent, wonderful women, and that just lights me up.
Kate Toon:
I’ve seen some of your videos on LinkedIn of you all walking through gardens, looking glamorous in frocks. I love it. I would say that I was very financially driven for a long time. I remember being at that level where I went to the corner shop because in England they have corner shops, and I could afford an egg and an onion, and that was it. Eggy onion is still one of my favourite meals. You can get an egg for like 8PI back then. God, I haven’t said PI for a while. That’s amazing. It’s funny because I feel the same. We’ve got a great little team of people, some subcontractors, some employees, and I love being able to work with them.
Kate Toon:
That’s what I feel like. I get to work with you every day and I love you. Like me and Nian finish our calls and we always say, “Love you.” Sometimes it’s by accident and now it’s become a thing because I love that I get to do this every day. It’s brilliant. So, the financial thing, I’ve ticked off a few goals, but it’s still there. I think that doesn’t go away. So, again, nothing wrong with that. We’re nearly at the end, I would love you to pass on a few tips to newbie copywriters. I’m just about to start my copywriting business. What should I do first?
Sarah Spence:
I personally feel the only thing you should do, don’t bother setting up a website, don’t bother getting business cards, don’t bother with a domain name just yet, just subcontract as much as possible.
Kate Toon:
I love it.
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. When you subcontract with us, for instance, you gain access to a whole Asana set up. You can see the process we follow and the briefs that we use. There’s nothing to stop you guys taking them and using them for yourself and your own other clients. So, those copywriters or content agencies who have grown and scaled and are looking for great writers, just subcontract, you learn so much by doing that way.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, I agree. You learn process, you can see how they manage projects, you get your work critiqued by other members of the team, you become a better writer without the stress of worrying about dealing with the client, necessarily worrying about how much to charge for every project. That’s why I do love the Clever Copywriting Community because you picked some of our best copywriters out of there and made them your own. Matt done the same. It’s like a little corral of bright minds to work with, and such a great experience. I really agree. I don’t like being told what to do, so that wouldn’t have worked for me, but I think it will work for a lot of people. So, look, what’s next for you? You’ve got a lot of exciting things happening, what’s coming up?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. So, look, it definitely solidifying some of the growth we’ve had, which just basically means trying to not take on too many new clients, but I often can’t contain myself with that. We’re also really looking to expand our services. So, we’ve been doing quite a lot with the pillar and cluster content model for our clients in the last 18 months or so. We’re moving into more of a waterfall space. So, go look it up if you don’t know what that is, but it’s really about how you can take one interview, let’s say, and how it can then populate a huge raft of different content items, blogs, videos, graphics, infographics, social media content, blah, blah, blah. It’s about trying to make your content work harder for you with less effort, really. So, we’re looking to expand our services across into video, across into more graphics.
Sarah Spence:
I think even when I started copywriting online content had already progressed so far beyond just the words on the page. Even if you just gain, as you said before, like gain a basic understanding of what else there is out there, that user experience piece of, you write this blog, where do you want the person to go next? It’s not always about just contact us, it’s like what other articles might be of interest to them? What internal linking are you going to put in there? That stuff matters and adds value.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. There’s all that theory. Isn’t that it takes seven interactions before someone will make a purchase, and they’re not all just going to be reading blog posts. It could be a podcast like this. It could be a funny tweet. It could be many different things. I’m thinking that when you do your next masterclass for Clever Copywriting School that we should call it, I just wrote it down. I’m literally writing you an email as you’re talking pillars, clusters and waterfalls. Would that be your next masterclass for?
Sarah Spence:
Certainly. I’ve got some very funky slides that I can talk through about.
Kate Toon:
It’s all about the slides, funky slides. So, silly questions to finish with, what is your spirit vegetable?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah. So, my spirit vegetable and I’ve had to go into a quiz to figure this out.
Kate Toon:
You didn’t just know.
Sarah Spence:
I didn’t know. I sat here for a moment. I was like, “What is my spirit vegetable? I didn’t know.” So, I did, it was very long quiz and it turned out that it was broccoli. I will read you the description because this is most accurate descriptions of kids ever. “I am broccoli. As a kid, I got bullied a lot, but as I’ve gotten older and have come into my own, I’ve realised that I can’t be a victim of my circumstance. I love who I am now, and people will come around to me eventually. If not, I’m good with that too. I’ve been called an acquired taste, but if I’m caught in the right situation, everyone loves me.”
Kate Toon:
Oh, my gosh, can you send me the link to this quiz?
Sarah Spence:
Yeah, I will do. It’s so ridiculously accurate.
Kate Toon:
I think you need to get a big picture of some broccoli in your office, like artful broccoli. That’s worth like a year’s worth of psychology. It’s like psychotherapy there. I think you’ve got it. I’ve always thought I’m a potato, partially physically, but not so much now because as you said, your partner called me a gym bunny, I’m a gym potato. But I think I’m very versatile. You can chop me up, crisp, mash me, jacket me, even make me into those little palms. I love those palms. Do you know what I mean?
Sarah Spence:
You do look good in jackets.
Kate Toon:
I do look good in the jacket. Thanks. I look good covered in butter that’s rooting. What am I even talking about? Anyway, I am going to the post office to send you ahead of broccoli later on today, but I also want to thank you ever so much for being such an inspiration to everybody in the Clever Copywriting School, being so open about all the mental health staff and the stresses and whatever, it helps. It really does help. We need more people talking about this. So, thank you also for being the third ever member of the Clever Copywriting School and for being the third ever guest on my new podcast. Thanks, Sarah.
Sarah Spence:
Thank you. I feel very privileged to be here.
Kate Toon:
Great.
