“It’s important to decide what’s okay and not okay in your own business. You might be okay to reply to stuff on the weekend or you might want to set firm. But boundaries have made the biggest difference for me.”
– Ali Strachan
Us copywriters, ooh we love a good niche.
And if we find one that aligns with something we genuinely love, even better.
So imagine being a copywriter for artists, the ultimate creative combo of words and pictures.
But that said, if a picture paints a thousand words, who needs a copywriter?
And artists aren’t exactly known for their bulging bank accounts.
So how do you make being an Arts copywriter work for you and your business?
How do you turn that client contact blank canvas into a work of art?
And how the heck do two highly creative humans work together without tears and spilled paint?
Today’s guest explains it all.
Tune in to learn:
- Why Ali decided to niche into Arts Copywriting
- What kinds of projects an Arts Copywriter works on
- What challenges come from working with artists
- How Ali finds copywriting clients
- Ali’s biggest copywriting career win
- Ali’s biggest career fail
- Ali and Kate’s favourite copywriting tools
- How Ali balances the work-life balance and her top mental health tip
- Ali’s top tip for newbie copywriters
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And big thanks to Kate Crocker for their lovely review:
“Fabulous podcast, filled with achievable copywriting tips, and interviews with real copywriters offering excellent insight and experience. Listening to the podcast is a great way to reinforce the learnings in the Clever Copywriting School. You’ve done it again, Kate Toon. It’s a masterstroke.”
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About Ali Strachan
Ali Strachan is an arts copywriter who works with artists across Australia and the globe; in California, Hawaii, Stockholm, Amsterdam, Cairo, Shrewsbury, (UK), Dublin and more. Her clients have toured the globe, won grants, built amazing online businesses, and built their profiles off the back of her words.
Ali is also the president of an artist-run community organisation, Assorted Grains. They are a diverse assortment of artists, musicians, writers, filmmakers and performers who combine unexpected artforms with interactive experiences to create memorable arts events. They’re all about creating safe and vibrant spaces to share stories, culture, and celebrate our similarities and differences.
Fun fact: Ali got a hand weaving loom last Christmas and has absolutely fallen in love with the scrumptious textures, and soothing practice of creating fibre art.
Connect with Ali Strachan
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Transcript
Kate Toon:
Us copywriters, ooh, we love a good niche. And if we find one that aligns with something we genuinely love, even better. So imagine being a copywriter for artists, the ultimate creative combo of words and pictures. But that said, if a picture paints a thousand words, who needs a copywriter? And artists aren’t exactly known for their bulging bank accounts. So how do you make being an arts copywriter work for you and your business? How do you turn that client contact blank canvas into a work of art? And how the heck do two highly creative humans work together without tears being spilled, and paint being spilled too? Today’s guest explains it all.
Hello, my name is Kate Toon and I’m the head copy beast at the Clever Copywriting School, an online community and teaching hub for all things related to copy. And today I’m talking with Alison, I always get your second name wrong. I’m about to say Strachan, but I think it might Strachan. How do I say it?
Ali Strachan:
Strachan.
Kate Toon:
Strachan. Strachan. It’s like everyone gets Toon wrong. It’s Toon, but there we go. Strachan, Strachan, you would not guess that from the spelling. Where’s that, what’s the origin?
Ali Strachan:
I think it’s originally Strachan. It’s looks Scottish.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, it looks Scottish. I was going to say it’s a wee bit of Scots there. So I’ll say Alison Strachan from now on. That was Irish. I’ve gone into Irish now. I don’t even know what I’m doing. Let’s stop.
Ali Strachan is an arts copywriter who works with artists across Australia and the globe in California, Hawaii, Stockholm, Amsterdam, Cairo, Shrewsbury, I love that Shrewsbury got put in there, Dublin and more. Her clients have toured the globe, won grants, built amazing online businesses and built their profiles off the back of her words. Ali is also the president of artist-run community organisation Assorted Grains. They’re a diverse assortment of artists, musicians, writers, filmmakers and performers who combine unexpected art forms with interactive experiences to create memorable arts events. They’re all about creating safe and vibrant spaces to share stories, culture, and celebrate our similarities, similar moralities and differences. Fun fact, Ali got a hand weaving loom last Christmas and has absolutely fallen in love with scrumptious textures, and the soothing practice of creating fibre art. Oh I’d love a loom. I’d love a loom.
Ali Strachan:
Oh it’s so good.
Kate Toon:
Okay. So I love a bit of craft. I do a bit of painting too. A bit of a mistake. I’m currently working on one of those tapestry thingies. Am I good at any of it? Not particularly, but I do love a bit of art. Why did you end up choosing art as your niche? What was your journey to copywriting? What did you do before? Were you an artist or were you a dancer on a cruise ship? I don’t know. Tell us about your journey towards being a copywriter.
Ali Strachan:
Well, I started in finance of all things-
Kate Toon:
Oh no.
Ali Strachan:
Which is like the complete opposite end of art. It was the job I had before I had kids and it was flexible. It allowed me to take the kids to work when they were sick. I had a little creche out the back and it worked for a really long time, but it was so boring. So I used to write on the side and I did a bit of coms work for them at the end. I think after a trip to Melbourne one year, I came back and I was missing something culture and I just needed that in my life. So my husband and I, we started a little local blog and a podcast. We’d go out and meet people and interview them. And then when I decided to leave that job, I wanted to be a writer for a living. And that’s where I came into copywriting. And then eventually, I think it was probably three years in, I decided to really go after that art side of things after being fairly generalist before that.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. So you’ve been a copywriter now for seven, eight years? Am I thinking right there?
Ali Strachan:
Yes, yes. Actually I think it’s six and a half.
Kate Toon:
Six and a half. And you were a member of Clever Copywriting School for a long time and now you’re a member of Digital Master Chefs and yeah, I’ve watched your brand evolve and watched you niche down. And as well as being a copywriter for artists of all types, I talked about visual art there, but as you mentioned musicians and performers, and you’ve actually also tried to offer advocacy as well, like offer advice around strategy and also empower artists a little bit to sell their work because I guess there’s a bit of a… I’m not sure what the right word is. It’s almost like, artists, how dare you sell your work. You’re meant to be a starving artist. If you become commercial, you’ve sold out. Do you feel that?
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, and I definitely think there’s a clear divide with a lot of the people that I work with. The fine arts definitely feel that way and they really struggle with the academic side of language and all of that kind of stuff. But they also don’t mind a little bit of that. And then there’s the more e-com side who don’t mind diversifying their income and really going after different things and they might be teaching as well as selling stuff and doing print on demand and merchandise and all of that kind of stuff as well.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. And you’re also on a bit of a mission to take away that kind of elitism around art as well. Talk to that a little bit.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, I mean when I first started I really noticed that when we were interviewing people and we used to take pieces of art into the community and ask them really leading questions and get people to tell us what they thought and take that back to the artists and get their feedback. And they were all like, oh, there was such a, I’m afraid to say anything about this art because I don’t want to feel like I look stupid. And so that elitism comes in with that language I think. And so really my mission is to make art accessible, to make everyone realise that everybody’s creative and make it approachable and accessible from that side of things. So that’s really what drives me.
Kate Toon:
So talk to me about your ideal client. Who are the kinds of people that approach you and who do you like to work with?
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, I think my natural instinct is to go after visual artists, but I work with jewellers and things like that, but anyone who really has an established amount of work so they’re not starting from scratch. I get a lot of inquiries from people who really have no idea where they fit in yet, what their product looks like. And it’s not worth working with a copywriter that early in the process. They need to do some of that and I can give them some information and guide them along the way before they get to me. I’ve learnt the hard way [inaudible 00:07:22] comes to that. But yeah, so, definitely, they have a decent amount of work under their belt. They may have tried to write their own copy, they may have tried different tactics in the past. And then I really come in and audit where they’re up to and we work out a plan for their copy to make sure that it actually helps them reach their goals.
Kate Toon:
So, like in the business world, a lot of copywriters don’t particularly like working with startups because you’re not actually writing copy. You end up being a bit of a business coach and a shoulder to cry on. And so you’re working with artists who are semi-established, they know who they are, they know where they’re going, but they’re just not quite sure how to get there. What are the sorts of things they want from you as a copywriter? I can imagine you writing the blurbs next to the paintings in the art gallery, but it’s not really that, is it? Is it websites? What sort of tasks do they come to you with?
Ali Strachan:
Well, I guess, it’s mostly website stuff. A lot of that storytelling side about who they are and the artist statements and the bios and stuff that underpin all of that other work because that’s what they’re struggling with. They’re too close to their work. They don’t know how to separate themselves, because art is such a personal thing. You’re putting yourself out there and it’s really hard to know what to say. But who likes writing about themselves? But then I guess there’s a double-edged sword. So some of the work that I do on websites can then translate, for example, an artist statement might become at about page copy. I can demise it for SEO in that way. But even the statements we use, artists artwork descriptions can be used under the artworks in galleries and on the website if they want to go for awards. So there’s so many different applications.
Kate Toon:
So it’s helping them because I think one thing I think, from my brother is an artist and it’s quite hard for him to articulate why he does what he does. Why did he pick that particular medium? Why does he paint that type of stuff? Where did that come from? What are his values? What are his inspirations? It’s quite hard to articulate that. So I guess one of your jobs as a copywriter is to try and draw that out of an artist.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, definitely.
Kate Toon:
That must be interesting.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, the brand story I think is something we really need to lean into, which I think is a struggle because lots of artists are introverts, and I’m the same, I don’t want to be the centre of everything, but there are ways of telling those stories that doesn’t necessarily… Because the other end is that people don’t want to tell people what the art is about. They want that to be completely subjective.
Kate Toon:
So you’re writing those little blurbs next to the art. But if you go and look at a Mark Rothko, it can be whatever you want it to be. I always remember reading a great poem, Red and Maroon about the huge Rothko that was in the Tate at the time. And it’s all about, it’s a burning building. No, it’s a ruby filled pond. No, it’s this. And again, you end up saying, look, it’s acrylic on canvas. That’s it. The rest of it take as you want. It’s hard, isn’t it?
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, it’s definitely hard. I think pictures will only get you so far. I think what people don’t realise is that stories themselves, even if it’s not about what they think the art is about, telling their personal story in a way that connects with why the artwork exists, helps people then draw their own stories. So it doesn’t have to be what you want.
Kate Toon:
And it’s also about building that connection. I just bought a piece of art from a local artist. She takes these old vintage maps and paints over the top of them kind of in the contours of the map. So it’s like a map of where I live, the central coast and a swimmer sitting on the map, but their back is the shape of Ettalong Beach and it’s beautiful. It works. And I followed her for a long time. And with the post, if she just shared the image, obviously the images are interesting. But I’m a writer, I’m a reader, so I want to go and read what that means. I hope you can’t hear that mad dog in the background. Can you hear that mad dog? Awesome. I can.
Shut up.
I like to read the captions that go with it, but also, it’s funny, I like to feel like I’m connected to the artist in some way. I get them, in the same way we do with brands. People want to buy from brands who they feel have values that are aligned to their own. I want to fill that. I feel like I want to know who they are, which is kind of intrusive of me really. Why does it matter? But it does.
Ali Strachan:
Exactly. And I think air of mystery used to be cool. Do you know what I mean? And that’s where some of the elitism comes from, I think. Because that person is then put up on a pedestal and then they feel unapproachable and then it’s like, oh, as the normal person’s like, oh that suits me.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. So it’s funny isn’t it? I’ve got a friend, Brad Robson, you should follow him on Instagram. He’s amazing. He’s an artist and he does these paintings where he draws a really perfect painting, perfect painting of Marilyn Monroe. And then he kind of drags across them and disrupts them and makes them a little bit disturbing to be honest. He does really cool ones of Lady Diana, but with a Kinks t-shirt on. It’s a really odd combination and he’s a man of few words. So the captions underneath are quite short and quite enigmatic. I wonder if he gets copywriting help, but it’s interesting. Do you do a lot of social media stuff?
Ali Strachan:
So I don’t do a lot of social media really. It’s not something I enjoy as much, but I do help people to unpick their story and then map it out across all different channels. And social media is included in that. I did have a recent client who was really stuck on how to tell his story. So what I did was help him unpick what that looked like and then coach him a little bit about how to apply that to his social media captions. But then he wrote them and I edited them. So it’s a little bit of a different process.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, and I think that’s interesting. I think as a copywriter, we think it’s all just the words, that it can be that coms strategy. Obviously for artists at the moment, Reels and Tik Toks are amazing, just showing you doing your craft and the stages. But again, that does not come naturally to everybody. So having someone that says, got nine posts, maybe make one about you, maybe make one about your technique, maybe you make one about a piece of work you’ve sold, one of you going to get where you find your inspiration. That’s still copywriting to me because it’s kind of saying, yeah, you’re going to actually produce this, but here are some ways in, like you said, here are some ways to express your art rather than just you painting constantly. Yeah, yeah.
Ali Strachan:
He was a landscape artist so he was like, “I’m just painting cities.” I’m like, “Yes, but there’s a story in that city and there’s a reason why you’re drawn to it. And then there’s all of that stuff that comes with that decision.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. And there’s tactics around, well okay, if you’re going to do some content about Tokyo, think about using some tags around Tokyo. Think about who would like this, who could you share this with? Who will amplify your content? Why did you pick Tokyo? What is it about Tokyo that gets you excited? Yes, loads there isn’t there? It’s very rich. But you do other things. You do brand strategies, you do nurture sequences, tone of voice, and I imagine quite a lot of stuff for exhibitions when there’s a portfolio or something going on. You write a lot of those as well. It sounds very fun.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, it is really fun actually. And it’s a little bit of a different approach, but I guess what I try and do is package the content in a way that can be used-
Kate Toon:
Across.
Ali Strachan:
At the exhibition but also on their website. So it’s an adaptable thing because artists, they’re sole trader so they don’t have endless budgets usually.
Kate Toon:
Yes. And obviously you’re producing the foundations for awards and things like that as well. So when you submit art for an award, you have to say why you did it and what your story is. So they’re kind of providing them with the tools that they can use across a lot of things. So let’s talk about that a little bit. Talk about the projects you work on. What are some of the challenges of working with artists? You mentioned budget, I mean clearly, unless you are Brett Whiteley. Well he’s not around anymore, but you know what I mean. Unless you do very, very well, money is not necessarily forthcoming, although some of my mates make a fortune from their art. But I guess that finances would be the first challenge for you.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, it definitely is a challenge. I think that’s really why I’ve decided to package the work that I have so that there is multiple uses. And sometimes what I do is sometimes people have hundreds of pieces of artwork that they need descriptions for and that’s just unfeasible for most. They’re not a huge corporate brand that has this $50,000 budget to apply to this. So I usually write a good, I guess variance of about five or six and then teach them how to apply those for different uses.
Kate Toon:
I love that. I love that. So templates and coaching as well. It’s the same as when we can flip it to e-commerce product descriptions. You’ve got 200 products, but let’s be honest as well, you don’t need descriptions for all of those. Maybe just your new collection or the pieces that you really want to sell or the pieces that have been in the warehouse for a while that are never going to sell. So you can actually cherry pick and choose and then talk to them about a structure of like, well what is it? Why is it important? How does it make them feel? It’s very similar to product descriptions I think.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, I love that. And when you’re doing tone of voice, I was just on the previous episode of the pod talking to Justin Blackman about tone of voice and how it’s a lot about vocabulary and cadence and obviously readability. But I guess one of the things I would find delicious about writing for artists is your adjectives. You must have to really push that one because you can’t just say it’s very beautiful, you can’t use very, can you? You must really have to push into the adjectives.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, I had a really fun one last year from a lady in Amsterdam who creates sculptural work. She uses plaster and colours the plaster and applies it really thick onto a canvas. So it’s all really thick and you just want to touch it. And that was a lot of fun. Yeah. But obviously my Thesaurus is my best friend when it comes to that.
Kate Toon:
We had Angela Denly on the podcast very early on and she’s writing about food and you’re trying to evoke the taste of the food and the smell of the food. But with the art I can see it, but especially if it’s sculptural, it’s about how does it make me feel? Become some sculptures are actually quite intimidating or oppressive or upsetting or beautiful and I think it would be great fun. You can see I’ve not got great adjectives there. I need to get my Thesaurus on.
But I guess as well, you’re not just writing for traditional artists, musicians, performers. You’re also working with arts councils, arts bodies, and I guess they might have a little bit more money up their sleeve. Am I right?
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, they do. Arts organisations are a double edged sword. I know from running one that they’re all run on a shoestring budget. So they’re still relying on funding. They tend to use people in their team already and those people wear 17,000 hats. So you might be the marketing manager, the copywriter, this, this, this and this, the designer, everything else. So when they realise they can outsource some of that work to other people, then yes, they usually do have the budget for it. But it’s getting them to understand that to start with.
Kate Toon:
That’s true, of small business too though. Everyone thinks they can write and especially if you’re an artist, you already think you’re a creative type and it’s like, well if I can do this, I must be able to do that because it’s creative. I think I can paint. I can’t, but because I’m a creative it should all come naturally. And I think that’s quite challenging. I mean, I must imagine it’s hard enough working with say an accountant and trying to capture their tone of voice, but working with an artist and trying to describe their art in a way that they’re comfortable with, I mean, I’m guessing you might have a few prima donna moments or a few creative clashes, or have you learned really to work through that? You have to be quite a diplomat I imagine?
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, I mean I have been pretty lucky as far as that goes. I’ve only had one or two clients, one particularly who didn’t want to take advice on some of the SEO that they needed to do. They just wanted content for the sake of content. And I had to say to them, look, I’m not here to do that. It’s not going to be worth your while. I’d prefer to do the research properly and then apply a strategy to your content. And then others that yeah, sometimes you don’t gel with people and then it’s not worth the heartache to push through.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. And let’s be honest, accountants can be prima donnas too, so it’s not exclusive to artists. So obviously this sounds like just such a beautiful niche for you and you’re really enjoying it and it’s all that you want it to be. But someone thinking, oh gosh, I would love to work in a niche like that. How do you find your clients? What are the main ways that you onboard clients and how they discover you?
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, so I think since Covid, really not liking social media. So I had not done a lot of my own marketing for a really long time and I’m just coming back to that point where after spending a year also setting up Assorted Grains and getting all the foundations of that and splitting my focus, really during that time, my website has just given me leave, which is great. The SEO’s working. And really I’ve just gone back to that and said okay, well I need to be a little bit cleverer about how we’re doing things and putting some more effort in there. I find that most of my clients actually come from overseas. They don’t come from Australia, which I think is really interesting. I don’t know if that’s a value thing and we don’t get it here as much as other people.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, maybe. And I mean I think that’s obviously the beauty of nicheing. If I were to search for arts copywriter, I don’t think there are that many or copywriter for artists or whatever. And then also, I’m assuming as well that a lot of it is word of mouth. If you’re working with an art association and they’ll therefore recommend you to the artist that they work with, then it’s going to be one of those things that takes a while to build up. But once it starts, it’s out there. And obviously you having your own arts programme, Assorted Grains, is helpful.
But with social media, because I’ve known Ali for a long time, you were doing it for a while and it was great and you were doing the classic thing that I recommend, which is having opinions about things and expressing them and challenging the common thought and calling out things that weren’t right. And I was loving all of that but then it stopped. So was that just life got busy, Covid got in the way or did you find… Oh sorry, my phone is going off. How embarrassing. My phone. Why did you lose love of socials? Because I think a lot of people have lost love with socials so I’m just wondering.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, I think it was a combination of things. I think probably I was just fatigued and my focus got split. Some of it was to do with, I know being an introvert, all of the push towards Reels and stuff really didn’t align. I just didn’t have-
Kate Toon:
Don’t you want to dance with paintbrushes? Come on.
Ali Strachan:
I should have just painted my face.
Kate Toon:
You should have just body paint copywriting on your body like verb, adjective, colon. Yeah there’s one. There’s a real idea for you. I know what you mean. It did feel like it went through a big shift, especially on Instagram last year with a massive push towards videos and Reels, and while I don’t mind doing them once in a while, I don’t want to feel that that’s what’s expected. I’m not here to dance and I’m not saying you have to but I’m not here to perform and this art, you work with performance artists but you’re the behind the scenes person. Thank you very much. It’s hard.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. So obviously things have been building and you’ve been doing this for a little while now. What’s been one of your biggest career wins so far?
Ali Strachan:
I struggle with it a little bit with this one because I think a lot of the win I get is actually from being able to dig into somebody’s work and actually give them that satisfaction of oh yes, walking away and saying I have much more confidence in being able to articulate who I am and what my art is about. And that happens a lot, which is great. But there was one particular project I worked on, a sales page on a lady who was based in Sweden and we wrote a sales page and within 24 hours she had 4,000 signups.
Kate Toon:
Oh my lordy.
Ali Strachan:
Incredible.
Kate Toon:
That feels really measurable and sometimes I think those good feels and leaving a client so much better than you found them, feels less measurable than that and therefore we disregard it. But I think to be honest, for me as a copywriter, that’s what matters to me as well. I mean there’s been some big financial wins which mattered a lot to me when I started. But now it’s the vibes, feeling like you’re doing good in the world and that you’ve genuinely made a difference to someone’s life. They’ve been able to make more money or support their family, that’s a big win. So yeah, I think we dismiss that too easily, because we’re all about, I improved the ROI by 7% and it’s like ugh.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, even a lot of the content I’m writing doesn’t actually have a sales.
Kate Toon:
Exactly. Exactly. If you’re writing for a SaaS client and you were trying to improve them, it’s a different vibe. So yeah, you have to get your kicks where you get your kicks. So, well we always like to do the flip side. Let’s talk about one of your biggest fails. Have you had any?
Ali Strachan:
I’ve been pretty lucky as far as fails go. I think apart from the odd client that we really don’t gel with and have really had to part ways, that probably hasn’t happened, probably only one or two times over the time that I’ve been doing this. And particularly with arts clients, which is good.
Kate Toon:
But I wonder if that comes from the fact that you’ve chosen a niche that is very authentically you, so therefore you’re going to attract people who are similar to that. You’re not pretending to be anything you’re not, so that when you actually do meet your clients it’s an easier get. I don’t know, do you know what I mean? If you are still in finance, hating it but doing it for the money, probably every client would annoy the crap out of you.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah. It actually took me a long time to stop taking those clients when I was transitioning from those, and then I think it was towards the end of Covid I was just like, no, I can’t do this anymore.
Kate Toon:
I’m done with that. Yeah. And it’s funny, we had Bec Coe on the podcast recently, and one of her niches is finance. And she spent a while kind of rejecting that because that was her background and she’s like, “No, I don’t want to do that.” And then she’s like, “Actually for me, I know about this. I’m comfortable with this. I get this. This copy is easy for me. So while I don’t want it to be everything that I do, I’m okay with it being about 50% of what I do and then the rest.” And I think that’s interesting, isn’t it?
You can go one way or the other, completely reject the previous you or embrace it and make the most of it. And I think, as you said, sometimes it’s about that pivot isn’t immediate. You don’t go, today I’m an arts copywriter and I shall turn down any other work. That’s not what nicheing is about. Nicheing is about specialising. And over time you can move that needle till maybe your finance is 10%, 6%, 4%, done, no more finance for me. I like that. But I think people think it’s like a hairpin turn and it’s not. It’s a lazy arc and you need to give yourself time to financially move on and mentally move on from what you’re used to and embrace your new comfort zone. It’s interesting.
So yeah, those fails as you said, few and far between and probably as you would agree, it’s often when you get a bit of a niggle when you’re talking to someone and you go, “I’m not listening to that. I’m going to keep going.” And then you should have trusted your gut.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, there’s boundaries. I’ve learnt the hard way on that as well. That’s probably been actually my biggest learning thing. I think it took me a really long time to figure out that I shouldn’t just do things the way I was expected. Because within the copywriting community and within any kind of business community, there’s a lot of talk around how you work best and you should do things this way and get up really early. And that’s just really not me. But it took me a really long time to embrace the way that I work. But was really unhappy for a really long time because I ignored that.
Kate Toon:
I think that’s it. I mean there are processes, there’s methodologies, but you have to take from them what works for you. I’m writing my new book and I’m writing all about productivity and some people are early birds, some people are night owls and some people are afternoon pigeons, whatever you want to call them. But being a night owl is super frowned upon in our culture. Everything good in the world happens in the morning. If you’re a morning person, you’re seen as far superior to someone who stays up late at night. There’s something seedy about that, something negative. Why? It’s just our circadian rhythms. It’s just who we are. And it’s really hard for a night owl to become a morning person and it makes them unhappy. I’m reading this great book about sleep at the moment and it says it’s primal. Everyone’s in the cave. You need some people who are up in the morning and you need some people who are up at night and tribes are made up of these different types of people.
Otherwise if everyone was asleep at the same time, you’d all get eaten by a mammoth. Think mammoths are vegetarian, but you get my point.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. I listened to a great podcast that my husband shared with me about that too and it really just went, oh yeah, that makes lots of sense.
Kate Toon:
So I work the way I work so that you don’t get eaten by a mammoth. That’s the line. All right. So tools, all artists have their tools. What tools do you have as a copywriting artist?
Ali Strachan:
I think I’m very process driven. So I really love Trello and I think most artists are a bit tech scared. So this can be a bit challenging for some people, but other people really embrace it too. The ones that especially who run online courses and stuff don’t really find it an issue.
Kate Toon:
I think of all of them, Trello is the most visual, compared to Asana or Basecamp. At least it’s kind of post-it notey and that feels a bit more arty.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, and it’s very transparent. They can see exactly the way I’m thinking about things. They can add things at any time. And some of the best projects I’ve had, the most enjoyable ones, have been where people have got in and really collaborated on that side of things before we even got into the writing.
Another one, which I really love is Keywords Everywhere, especially for lots of, I send everyone to the nibbles. Oh
Kate Toon:
My nipples course.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah. So nibbles course because, well if you’re a bit afraid of SEO or you need some knowledge or whatever, then this is a great starting point for you. Use the Keywords Everywhere tool. It’s cheap, you don’t have to have a separate programme, it’s going to overwhelm you and give them a little bit of taste on that. And then we can build, especially if I’m setting them up with a bunch of templates to work and continue creating their own artwork descriptions and things like that, then that’s really invaluable.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, I think that’s the least intimidating of the SEO tools. And again, a lot of tools, it’s about how they visually present the information. I love Semrush but it’s visually overwhelming and whereas Keywords Everywhere is quite linear, quite clear, yes, it only does a couple of different things but sometimes that’s all you need. So I’m a fan of that one. Any others? I know you’re going to mention my pet hate next.
Ali Strachan:
ChatGPT.
Kate Toon:
Yay.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, I know. I think it’s real. I’ve really ignored the whole AI copywriting stuff for so long and after a couple of posts in DMC I was like, I’m going to look at this. But I’ve actually really liked it for just ideation. A lot of the stuff I get is fairly generic and I’m learning. I think there’s going to be a real skill with learning how to put the prompts in [inaudible 00:32:38].
Kate Toon:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s it. Like you, I’ve largely put AI in a box for now, especially because I’m trying to write my book and I’m really trying to focus and I just don’t need any more information about the world. But I think a lot of people are quite terrified of ChatGPT and I think they shouldn’t be. It’s a tool and I think as you said, there’s an art to you putting the right keywords in, putting the headlines in, pulling them out. But even when you get that blog post pulled out, often it’s not structured in the right way. The flow is wrong, the introduction is kind of halfway through. You have to check the sources and the data because it’s pulling it from Wikipedia and then also it’s funny, I read clearly an AI piece. I was reading about dreams and what dreams mean, like when your teeth fall out and all of that. Not in a kind of, it portends you’re going to marry a stranger, but more in a have I got anxiety about this? Is that why I’m dreaming about it?
And I was reading these articles and all the ones that ranked well, they felt normal. I was reading them, the words were right, but they made no sense. I felt like I’d had a stroke or something. I was like, what? You’re reading the same sentence three or four times and you’re like, the words are there, they’re just not quite in the what? So I think we’re not quite there yet. And as you said, great for research and great for blank pageitis.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, definitely. If you’re really stuck on where to start then it’s a good prompt to get your brain going. But it’s not going to do any of the strategy work or any of that stuff.
Kate Toon:
I’ve been thinking, oh God, I’m struggling so much with the book, shall I just get a chapter written in ChatPT? But I actually find editing content, whoever wrote it, whether it’s AI or another copywriter is so much harder than just writing from scratch. Editing is super hard. So I think people think it’s a shortcut, but sometimes it can create more work than someone just knowing the topic well and writing it from scratch themselves. So we’ll see about that. So thank you. I’ll put links to Trello and keywords Everywhere and ChatGPT in the notes. And we’re going to have a guest coming on soon to talk about ChatGPT, I keep getting the P and the T wrong, on the podcast soon, so look out for that. But don’t be scared. It’s a good thing.
So let’s talk, before we wrap up, about one of the things that you and I are quite open about and you always talked about in the community, is the ups and downs of being a copywriter. It’s not all bunnies and unicorns. So how do you handle work-life balance and your mental health and all that kind of stuff? How do you not fall apart I guess is the question? Because we all have those moments, right?
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, I think, probably the biggest source of anxiety for me has been comparisonitis for a very long time. And that’s probably also one of the contributing factors for me to stepping away from social media is that I needed to listen to myself and work out what I wanted to be doing and really establish what those boundaries are. But in that, taking time for rest. I did go through a really long time where I was just working on weekends, at nights and wherever I could snatch time. And that could be good for people who, they might not have kids or other responsibilities or whatever. And even if you do, just work out what works for you. But I think making time to rest and let your brain, especially if you’re pushing through a creative block, don’t just try and push through. Giving that time away, letting your brain percolate then coming back has been a really hard lesson for me. Switching tools, even, going back to my Remarkable and writing by hand.
Kate Toon:
Oh we’re all jealous about Ali’s Remarkable. I don’t know why you brought that up, bitter about that. I think that’s so true. Allow your brain to buffer. But I also like your point about social media. I find a lot of copywriters tend to follow a lot of other copywriters and that leads them therefore not to put any content out because their competitors with air fingers are already putting that content out and you’re like, well why would I post about it? They already did, not realising that your clients don’t follow 72 copywriters. Also, there can be a tendency if you do have any kind of mentor or coach or you follow a copywriter that you love, like the Joanna Wiebes or whatever of the world. Again, you’re like, well why do I exist when Joanna Wiebe exists? She’s got it all covered. Why would I bother putting anything out about anything?
And again, remembering that people like to hear things from lots of different sources and I love her, but that doesn’t mean I’m not going to love everybody else. It’s really hard. So I think taking a step away from socials is fantastic and allowing you to be you, I think that’s a great message. Really, really important. And not pushing through. You’ve given me some thought there because I’m so stressed about my book. Sorry, I keep bringing it up. Can you tell? That’s why I’m dreaming about my teeth falling out and I’m like, I’ve got so much real work to do, but I just want some time to work on that. And I haven’t got it at the moment. I’m thinking, shall I get up at 4:00 AM tomorrow? And I’m like, no, that’s stupid. I’m not going to write well. Give myself a break. I will find the time. It always works out in the end, I find.
Anyway, talking of things working out and being a sage old Gandalf of a copywriter that you are now, what tip would you pass on to any newbie copywriters, people who are starting out?
Ali Strachan:
I think it would probably be, definitely listen to that inner instinct and the gut that comes with working the way you want to work. And try not to put your blinkers on. It’s okay to follow other people like you said. They’re presenting a rosy view of their life.
Kate Toon:
Unless they’re me who just shares all the bad stuff. But anyway, yes, I know what you mean.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah. Yeah, I mean I’ve done the same. And I find it’s good to have a fairly honest… I mean I feel like I’ve almost been traumatised at some point where I was like, no, I’m not going to put any of my professional photos up. It’s just too rosy and I’m just being silly now.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, it’s hard isn’t it because you’re like, I don’t want to be too – because that’s fake and I don’t want to be too negative because people are put off and I don’t want to be honest because for me especially, quite honestly, I’m quite a bleak person, and if I don’t want to necessarily put that out there continuously, otherwise no one would want anything to do with me. I’m not like that all the time. It’s hard. It really is hard.
What about boundaries? Because you said that’s been your biggest challenge. What tips would you have for newbies around boundaries?
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, I think really understanding what is okay and not okay in your own business. You might be okay to reply to stuff on the weekend or you might want firm boundaries around what that looks like and also the kind of projects you work with and really listen and get feedback. That’s what the copywriting school is like. The most invaluable thing about it is being able to say, I’ve had this situation happen, I had red flags about it. What do you think? And getting that feedback if you’re not sure. But boundaries definitely I think have made the biggest difference for me and learning those processes. Because I think initially, you’re a bigger process person, project management and all of that stuff there. Even if you don’t feel very confident because you’ve started out in the writing side, you can appear confident because you have your processes sorted.
Kate Toon:
Yes. Yeah. Yes. And following a process that’s tried and tested, yes over time you can adapt it, but at least you’re starting off with something rather than going, when do I send my invoice? How many rounds do I do? I don’t know. And I think the boundaries firm up over time. The boundaries of a sort of seven year in copywriter are not the same as a newbie, because as a newbie, yes, you may have to do some weekend email replying. You may go for jobs that are slightly lower value because we sometimes have to try a bit harder at the beginning. And then when you have a bit of cash flow and you have a bit of a reputation, you can firm up those boundaries.
I think again, there can be people too didactic at the start, saying, never go on Fiverr, never answer emails after six. Because if you do, you’re a terrible person. You’re letting down the industry. Nonsense. We all got to do what we got to do. And can’t all start on a lofty plinth, charging $800 an hour and expecting people to accept every regime you have. I think it changes. So anyway, just want to give you that freedom people if you’re listening.
Ali Strachan:
Because I work with people in other time zones, I’m okay with jumping on a meeting at six at night. Lots of people won’t be because they don’t work with those people. And that works for me anyway because my brain’s on at that time and-
Kate Toon:
Yeah, because you’re a night owl and this is it. I had a funny rule out for a little while because I was just so pissed off with social media that could you please everyone stop tagging me on every single post? Could you stop tagging me? Could you stop tagging me? And then I realised the problem is not people tagging me, but the fact that I was paying attention to every tag. You can’t change the behaviour. You have to change how you react to it. So that was an interesting one.
Anyway, I know that you’re in the process of building your own copywriting castle at the moment. So you’re designing your own home. What have you got? Have you got the book reading turret, the underground library, the pool full of books. What’s on the cards?
Ali Strachan:
Well actually none of those things.
Kate Toon:
Oh, no.
Ali Strachan:
We have a very small backyard in this place, but we are going to build a little art studio, which will be my own creative haven. Pretty much like the-
Kate Toon:
The Toon cave.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah. Toon cave. Because I have so much yarn now. And then just being able to have that own space for me to explore my creativity, which will then feed into, once you feel creative I think in one area of your life, it comes across into everywhere else as well.
Kate Toon:
Really does. How delicious. And also the delightful thing of not having to put everything away when you do it. I start craft and I’m like, I don’t want to start it because it’s going to take me so long to set it all out. I’m going to get half an hour of doing it and then I’m going to have to pack it all away again. So being able to leave things messy is great too. And a bit of a music studio as well there, I think. So you’re going to have everything there.
Ali Strachan:
Yes, yes.
Kate Toon:
Fantastic. Well look, Ali, always lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. Oh, not back on the show. You’re the first time, but you were on our previous podcast, so that’s why I’m thinking that. Tell everybody where we can find out more about you.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, you can head to my website, which is alistrachan.com and we can add the correct spelling I suppose in the comment. It’s a bit hard. And assortedgrains.org.au is my organisation.
Kate Toon:
And on social media, I guess at the moment, maybe LinkedIn, not doing so much on Instagram. I’ll link to your LinkedIn and people can find you there.
Ali Strachan:
Yeah, yeah, LinkedIn. I am on Insta occasionally. Trying to get back into that wheel a little bit. But yeah, Ali Strachan write.
Kate Toon:
Fantastic. All right, thanks so much, Ali.
Ali Strachan:
Thank you.
Kate Toon:
So that’s the end of this week’s show. If you want to grab more copywriting tips, head over and join the Misfit Entrepreneur group on LinkedIn or Facebook, where I share lots of bits and bobs. We just did a great little live about copy tone, so check that out. Anyway, thank you to Ali Strachan, and also thanks to Kate Crocker, another copywriter in the Clever Copywriting School who’s left this beautiful review, “Fabulous podcast, filled with achievable copywriting tips and interviews with real copywriters offering excellent insight and experience. Listening to the podcast is a great way to reinforce the learnings in the Clever Copywriting School. You’ve done it again, Kate Toon. It’s a master stroke.”
Thank you very much, Fellow Kate Crocker. If you like the show, it’ll be fab. If you have time to leave a five star rating or a little review, you can leave a four star if you like. I’d just be grateful for that. And we’ll give you a shout out on the show. As I said, you can check out the show notes for this episode at www.clevercopywritingschool.com, where you can learn more about Ali and links to her various bits and bobs and the tools that she mentioned.
Okay, that’s it. Until next time, happy copywriting. Bye-bye.
